Singer 111W155 Rehab

[Kryptonite]

Hi Guys and Dolls.  My first post after lurking for 3 months. I love this forum, one of the best I have ever been on. So I have been making a small product from garment leather and was sewing it (or struggling to) with a Singer household machine. I located and purchased a Singer 111W155 with table and new Consew Servo motor for $175. The previous owner was fed up taking the machine in for repair. Right now it won't sew. Leather or fabric won't move etc. It looks like a new timing belt has been installed so I thought I would check the upper and lower main shafts timing. According to this video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZXu--P2ips  to have the upper and lower shafts in time, the Feed Drive Connector Rod should be at its lowest point of arc and perpendicular to the lower main shaft (see picture 1) and the thread pickup arm is at its highest point and the 2 arrows should be aligned. My arrows are not aligned and my thread take up arm drops 3/8".  When I put the arrows together and have the thread take up arm at its highest position my Feed Rod is not in the correct position ( see picture 2) according to the video. What is out of whack or is it supposed to be this way?

Thank you,

Will

Central Florida

[gottaknow]

Welcome! Upper and lower shaft timing is accomplished by turning the upper shaft until the take up lever is at top dead center. Push up on the take up lever as you rock the hand wheel back and forth. This will allow you to feel when it's at its highest point. Then check your arrows. They should line up. Forget any other references. This is completely dependent that the lower shaft belt cog is in the original factory set location on the lower shaft, as well as the upper shaft belt cog. Singer was good about using two different styles of set screws. The screws with a point are meant for the "v" groove milled into the shaft. The other screw will be flat, often with a concave line where it sits on a round shaft. 

You can't take anything for granted in a machine of this age. Every upper and lower shaft component must be in it's original factory location. You start with the timing belt cogs. If the cog set screws have been mixed up, you can remove the lower cog to examine the marks on the shaft. You should be able to see the mark where the flat set screw was at production time.  A lot of "hack" mechanics will set an entire machine with components in the wrong orientation on both shafts because they never checked the timing belt cogs. 

If the previous owner kept having to take it to the shop, the mechanic was ignorant on the correct way to time the shafts and didn't know how all the components interacted. A service manual will assume that all shaft components are in the correct original factory positions. I have gone through many machines of this era and a lot of them have been really messed up by amateurs. I wish you well!

Regards, Eric 

[Uwe]

I mentioned that feed rod alignment in my video as a workaround for machines where the opposing arrow plate is missing. If you have both arrows, use just them. 

I just checked five of my machines and on every single one of them the feed dog is in its front-most position when the take-up lever is at its highest point. I doubt that the correlation is a coincidence and have a strong feeling that the correlation is one of those general, if unwritten, rules that apply to many sewing machines. It's a quick sanity check, if nothing else.

Your machine may well have multiple issues that need to be corrected. Following Eric's advice is your best bet. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Uwe

[Kryptonite]

Thanks Eric and Uwe.

Hehe - I think my lower belt cog was out 90*.

This morning I determined the top shaft belt cog can only sit in one position, as you know, because it is pinned. The bottom cog with 2 set screws can sit in 2 positions. I tried both. With the take up lever at TDC, my old cog position (P1) had my arrows misaligned 1/8".  Rotating the cog 90* counterclockwise into position two (P2) my arrows are dead on.  As far as the set screw marks on the shaft - there were marks for P1, and maybe slight marks for P2. but honestly hard to tell. Can somebody verify one set screw goes in the "V" grove and the other is to the left of the groove (see picture)? Eric you were right about the 2 styles of set screws, flat and pointed. And mine where in the wrong holes relative to the "V" groove... but not if I rotate the cog 90* into P2.

My feed dog connecting rod is half way between "bottom" and "out", but if that is not a clue to an issue then I'm good with that.

Thank you,

Will from Central Florida

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Kryptonite
wrong picture

[gottaknow]

Keep in mind that if/when you determine the correct orientation of the lower timing belt cog, your machine still may not operate correctly. You would then need to do the same for the feed dog eccentric and the stitch change mechanism. To a lesser degree, the hook driving gear can function correctly as long as a set screw (keeping the pointed one in the groove), which prevents it from slipping. At least these machines are easy to access all the lower shaft components. 

Machines of that age have had countless folks with screwdrivers moving stuff around. If you can puzzle your way through each component, you can set these machines to sew extremely well, staying within their limits of needle and thread size and thickness of goods that you're sewing.

If the settings have been fudged to compensate, the machine will be quirky and you'll get frustrated, as did the previous owner. You'll hear different mechanics tell you there are many ways to set a machine, which is usually an indicator that they are unable to set it correctly. In reality, there's only one correct way. This happens in factories too, as not all mechanics have the same level of expertise, just like most trades. 

Regards, Eric 

[Tejas]

Chapter 3 of this manual might be helpful.

http://militarynewbie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/NAVEDTRA-14217-Aircrew-Survival-Equipmentman-1-C.pdf

[Uwe]

On my Singer 111W155 it is the first set screws (as you turn the top of the handwheel towards you) that sits in the shaft groove. Same with the shaft collar that has the arrow on it. My machine also has marking "S" that indicate which of the two set screws should be in the groove on the shaft.

I suspect it's really that small shaft collar with the arrow on it where this which-set-screw-in-shaft-groove thing matters the most.  

Here's a video snippet of my Singer 111W155 and its set screw alignment on the hook driving shaft:

 

[gottaknow]

That lower timing cog is the most important that it's correct, as it's the starting point for setting the entire machine.  But make no mistake that they all matter. Anything that is on an eccentric needs to be correct. The feed dog eccentric, the eccentric on the upper shaft that coordinates the presser feet motion, the orientation of the needle bar driving cam. Also, flat set screws tend to come loose in a v groove and pointed ones slip on flat shafts. Singer did that for a very good reason. These are at the heart of correctly setting a machine to run trouble free. Your mileage may vary. 

Regards, Eric 

[Kryptonite]

Tejas - thanks for the manual it is going to help.

Uwe - thank you for taking the time to make the video.

Eric  - thank you for your time too.

Uwe, my collar part #2040060 is the same as yours, marked with an "S" closest to the set screw that goes into the V-groove on the shaft. My lower cog part #224112 does not look like yours. I wonder if my machine serial W1790118 is a 1950's version or the 1911-1919 version, if that matters? Early or late, our cogs are totally different. My "S" stamp is adjacent to the opposite screw (see pic). That is important... 2 different parts, with 2 different set screw alignments, used in the same location. That could mess some people up. 

So I have a choice. I can go with aligning my screws to look like yours in the video... V-groove screw on top and shaft screw to the right.

--- or ---

Use the "S" stamp to note what screw goes in the V-groove... V-groove screw on top and shaft screw to the left.

Given my machines troublesome past, and my timing arrows line up perfect when I use the "S" stamp method to determine the cogs position, logic dictates I go with that. 

I'm hoping I will see more of these "S" stamps as I progress through this rehab. BTW, where is the best orderly list of steps to guide me?  

 

Thank guys,

Will in Central Florida

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Kryptonite
sp

[Tejas]

Here is a Army manual starting on page 113 with detailed instructions for disassembly, but not much help for assembly. I haven't found a pdf, but hardcopy can (or at least could) be purchased via ebay.

https://archive.org/stream/TM10-3530-202-24#page/n1/mode/2up

[Kryptonite]

Concerning the Presser-Lifting Eccentric link with the 2 setscrews on the upper main shaft, the military service document says to loosen the 2 setscrews, hold the link, and turn the hand wheel changing the position of link on the shaft. When I loosen the setscrews I still cannot get the link to rotate and change position. Before I really put some muscle behind this, and possibly mess things up, I would like to ask for advice. Is there something else restricting rotation of the link? What am I missing? 

Thanks in advance.

Uwe your vids are great, a BIG help.

Will in Central Florida

Edited September 19, 2017 by Kryptonite
;-)

[Kryptonite]

Here is a video of my shuffling foot action. I think I need to move the Presser - Lifting Eccentric Link but it is stuck on the upper main shaft. Any suggestions to fix this would be appreciated.

Will in Central Florida.

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Kryptonite

[dikman]

Definitely not right! As I don't have a 155 I'm reluctant to tell you what to adjust, but besides the external adjusting link the lifting can be affected by some internal adjustments (on the shaft inside the end cover). The outer foot also looks to me like it doesn't have enough lift.I found with my Singers that it took a lot of reading of instructions and adjusting of stuff until I could figure out how to get the feet set to the optimum.

The two circled adjustments will affect the height of the feet and the relative movement of them (yours might be slightly different to this). There is a limited amount of adjustment to get the right spot. I'm not saying this is the answer but it's something to keep in mind, seeing that you don't know just who has adjusted what on this machine.

I'm wondering if whoever worked on it knew what they were doing? 

[Kryptonite]

Thanks Dikman post and the tips.

More later...

Will in Central Florida

 

[Kryptonite]

Guys is this right?  

Thanks,

Will

 

 

 

[gottaknow]

Yep. 

Regards, Eric 

[CowboyBob]

Looks perfect,so what did you do?

[Kryptonite]

Great!  

Bob as you kindly suggested, I started with the Presser Lifting pinch screw, trying to balance the inside and outside foot lift. After that it was evident the needle and the inside foot timing was way off. The only thing I could see that would change the timing was the location of the Presser – Lifting Eccentric Link on the upper main shaft. So I removed the Setscrews from the Link through the access hole, neither of which were "pointed". Holding the Link in position, I turning the handwheel just barely getting the shaft to move. A little at a time I rotated the Links position on the shaft until the needle and the inside foot landed on the product at the same time. BTW - after each little move of the Link I looked in the Setscrew holes for a groove on the main shaft (Simanco #240360) and none was to be found, and no visible “S” stamp on the Link. Next I adjusted the lifting height of both feet with the Eccentric/Cam - the more "wobble" the higher the foot lift. Then back to the PL pinch screw a few more times for fine tuning. Interesting engineering. So I’m glad I can move on to check the needle/hook timing using Uwe’s great vid, and am grateful for all the help I am getting.

 

To summarize for the next newbie…  

 

1. The Presser Lifting pinch screw - adjusts the lift “balance” between the inside and outside pressers.
2. The position of the Presser Lifting Eccentric Link on the upper main shaft – times when the needle and the inside presser touch the product.
3. The lift (wobble) of the Eccentric/Cam Link – determines the height both pressers lift.  

At least for my 1950’s Singer 111W155 version, others may differ.

 

Cheers,

Will in Central Florida       

Edited September 22, 2017 by Kryptonite

[dikman]

Well done. The interaction of the bits can be a bit daunting at first, but once you've worked it out it's a great feeling of achievement!

[Kryptonite]

Thanks D

I'm thinking ahead to the day when I start on the cosmetics. What is the best way to remove the brass badge pins? 

Will in Central Florida

 

 

[trash treasure]

Those drive screws can be a bear - Especially when they're holding a fragile raised relief badge like the singer one.

I've had pretty good luck with just carefully masking the badges - Scrape the paint off around the badge first, and then mask the badge with painters tape, carefully burnishing the tape over the edge, and trimming with an Exacto knife or razor blade.

If you want the badges off, then start with a small straight punch with a good crisp, square tip, and a small hammer. Hold the punch at a low angle against the side of the screw head, and tap the screw a couple times, from different directions, sideways - This will usually loosen it up in it's hole. Then you'll need to get under the edge of the screw head (or the badge itself) with something sharp and sturdy enough to pry with - A small sharp wood chisel will work. Maybe a sharpened putty knife, etc, to start with - Creativity helps here :~)

If you need to get new drive screws, you can find them at McMaster Carr - Their stainless ones are kind of attractive ......

Be patient, and good luck

Edited September 26, 2017 by trash treasure

[CowboyBob]

Yes,it's best to leave them on ,the larger one is almost impossible to get off w/o ruining it.I've used a wood chisel to get under them but as treasure said it is a lot easier to mask them & cut around w/a razor blade or exacto knife,then you won't be shopping for replacements,LOL!

[Cbm]

I have a similar problem on my 111w155 the timing seems ok but the foot is barely lifting but it is lifting

[dikman]

Cbm, by following the adjustments in this thread you should be able to get it set right. It's actually not that difficult. Has someone been fiddling with the adjustments? It would be unusual for it to just "go out of adjustment", unless, of course, a screw has worked loose somewhere.

[Cbm]

I replaced many parts including the arm shaft so this is a new eccentric and I dont know at what point to lock it down.I understand that the inside foot has to hit the feed dog along with the needle when adjusted properly but at what stitch length is the eccentric at full lift etc.yours looks great but I am new to this.