Needles 16x63 series specifically 16x113 what are they?

[JessH]

I've just been told I need 16x113 needles for my coming 331k5 machine. First problem is they don't seem to be available in the UK, though are in the U.S. with attendant postage costing far more than the tiny item.

But can anyone tell me, what is a 16x113 needle? Being a previously domestic only person, to me a 16 is a very small dainty needle, surely wrong in a machine designed to sew leather, albeit lightweight, and fabrics of uneven thickness. Are the industrial sizes completely different? Is there a substitute I can use? What is special about it, what does it look like? Anything else you can think of interest re these needles would be great? Thanks hopefully?

Edited September 25, 2017 by JessH
extra info

[Constabulary]

16 is a typical garment sewing machine needle (originally comes from Singer Class 16 machines) - that's why it is quite short.

DBx1 is another and maybe more common nomenclature for this needle as well as 1738, 287 or 563. This needle has a shank diameter of 1.63mm.

MAYBE you can use a different needle system in the needle holder (depends on the needle holder type) but you have to try it. Maybe a 135x7 could fit but is has a 2mm shank diameter. The next longer it the needle 135x17 - same 2mm shank diameter but 5mm longer than the 135x7. If you use a longer needle you have to raise the needle bar by the amount the needle is longer and check the needle hook timing again.

The leather point for 135x7 is 135x6 and for 135x17 it´s 135x16

Check with College sewing in the UK - I´m sure they have all you need.

 

[CowboyBob]

We always put the 135x17 needle in a 331k5,if it is set up for the 16x63 that is a longer needle & the 135x17 will work better since it has a scarf in it that the 16x63 doesn't.You will just need to lower the needlebar alittle to compensate.

[machinehead]

1 hour ago, CowboyBob said:

We always put the 135x17 needle in a 331k5,if it is set up for the 16x63 that is a longer needle & the 135x17 will work better since it has a scarf in it that the 16x63 doesn't.You will just need to lower the needlebar alittle to compensate.

Do what Bob says and all will be well for you. When you speak of a 16 needle being dainty, you are confusing the size of the needle eye with a system ( or in older reference a class) 16 needle.

 To confuse you further, the 135x17 needle that Bob refers to is for textiles , artificial leather and sometimes soft garment leather, but the same needle with a leather point is 135x16. These needles come in a wide variety of eye sizes as well as different shaped leather points.

[dikman]

I have a 331k4, not sure how different it is to a k5, but I use 16x2 needles, which are easy to get. Can't remember if I had to tweak the needle bar and timing because I had to do a bit of work on it to get it working in the first place!

[JessH]

Thanks everyone for all the info, will make a note of it for future reference. The seller solved the problem for now, by including some spare needles thank goodness. Their modern size is marked next to the 16-113. They are 120/19's, so I shouldn't have any problem finding them. See what you mean about the 16 being a system not a size, and for a 16 machine, very logical, but also confusing to a domestic machine user.

Now I just need to slow her down to a speed I can work accurately with. Have ordered mini pulley, and Cechaflo's youtube video describes fitting, wish me luck! Every now and then I got her to go fairly slowly, then the next run (samples) she'd career off again, I think I was using the same foot pressure, tried both feet separately, then together, finally settled on just right foot. She is a speed fiend though, if she were a car I'd be having a great time! Would certainly get stuff done in a hurry, nice even stitches too. Not sure I'll be doing any top stitching though, I think they may be a bit short to be decorative even on longest setting? We'll see when the foam arrives and I try stitching all the layers together...

[dikman]

Presumably you have a clutch motor fitted. It can take quite a bit to learn to master one for the slow speed needed for leatherwork. Best thing is to fit a servo motor, this will give excellent slow speed control and make it much easier to use the machine.

[JessH]

On 26/09/2017 at 1:40 AM, dikman said:

I have a 331k4, not sure how different it is to a k5, but I use 16x2 needles, which are easy to get. Can't remember if I had to tweak the needle bar and timing because I had to do a bit of work on it to get it working in the first place!

Thanks for suggestion, though for some reason best known only to Singer, the k5 uses a different needle system to the k4 (and all the other k's too).

[JessH]

20 hours ago, dikman said:

Presumably you have a clutch motor fitted. It can take quite a bit to learn to master one for the slow speed needed for leatherwork. Best thing is to fit a servo motor, this will give excellent slow speed control and make it much easier to use the machine.

Servo out of budget at least for the time being. I do have an original Singer black clutch motor, it is a direct drive I think? There is no lever between motor and pedal linkage like the white ones have, that you can extend, just a bracket on the side of the motor. It is lovely and quiet though, which suprised me, and goes like a Ferrari! I've never been scared of a sewing machine before, but when practicing some piping in leather today, and needing to hold it down in the path of the needle, she took off like a bolting horse, though I did manage to keep my fingers out of her way. Other times, she'll go at a very manageable speed, she's definitely acting like a tempermental mare, great character, but somewhat unpredictable! I don't think I'm using different pressure, but will be very glad when the small pulley arrives!

On the plus side, even with a standard needle, she sewed very happily and speedily through four layers of my leather, with the middle two containing the piping. Mostly the stitches were good, though not perfect, top 96%, underneath about 92%? Partially down to me, I did realise once or twice I was holding too tight at my end, due to the speed, hopefully the small pulley will sort that problem soon.

On 25/09/2017 at 11:59 AM, CowboyBob said:

We always put the 135x17 needle in a 331k5,if it is set up for the 16x63 that is a longer needle & the 135x17 will work better since it has a scarf in it that the 16x63 doesn't.You will just need to lower the needlebar alittle to compensate.

Will see if I can get some of 135/17's and 16's too, thanks for that info. Will use cautiously initially, in case some adjustments need to be made, so probably after slow pulley fitting would be wise. What is the needlebar? Sorry about daft question, but would hate to move the wrong thing?

 

[dikman]

This is the needlebar on a 31K20 that I had, it should be similar on your machine. It's the "bar" (actually a rod) that the needle attaches to. To adjust, loosen the clamping screw and slide up and down, setting the scarfe on the needle to the correct position relative to the bobbin hook. 135/16 and 17 are commonly used on quite a lot of older machines, so adjusting for them would make buying needles much easier.

[JessH]

 

On 25/09/2017 at 2:09 PM, machinehead said:

Do what Bob says and all will be well for you. When you speak of a 16 needle being dainty, you are confusing the size of the needle eye with a system ( or in older reference a class) 16 needle.

 To confuse you further, the 135x17 needle that Bob refers to is for textiles , artificial leather and sometimes soft garment leather, but the same needle with a leather point is 135x16. These needles come in a wide variety of eye sizes as well as different shaped leather points.

Thanks very much guys,

The needle bar is so obvious once you point it out . Yes I went onto ebay, posted 135/16, and loads popped up straight away thank goodness, so am ordering them and the 17's. I was beginning to panic I'd bought a machine that would be obsolete when my half dozen needles ran out... Huge relief, thanks so much, and one of the benefits of the internet, as without it, you would never have known how much I needed all your bits of info!

It's also possible you've sorted a conundrum, I was given 2 plastic packs of needles, both half empty, and on putting them all into one, I found four of the needles are 2mm shorter, so based on your advice, I wonder if they are 135/17's? Not sure which is in the machine, as don't feel like fiddling with that needle just yet, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! . Re scarves, the longer needle has a scarf with a ridge either side, while the shorter has a completely flat scarf, though you say the 16/63 doesn't have one at all, so could these both be 135's even though 2mm different? I see from my earlier comments I still didn't understand the needle system when these numbers were first offered. Pretty sure I finally do, and thanks for your patience.

[Wizcrafts]

If it helps you, the System 135x16 and 17 needles are 1.75" long. They are ubiquitous and used in a huge percentage of walking foot machines, as well as Singer patchers.

If the machine was designed to use a longer needle system and you adjust the needle bar for System 135x16, you'll lose some of the clearance and lift that was built into the machine. If most of your work is under that height it won't matter too much.