Zig Zag Machine Advice

[lazyd]

We end up with all these scraps of Hair-on cowhide from our Upholstery Shop. We have seen table runners and rugs made from these scraps zig-zaged together. Sooooo, what would be a good (affordable) zig-zag machine to buy for this job. We would be sewing through no more than 2 layers of 5/6 oz. hair-on cowhide. Probably 69 or 92 thread...??? Any ideas or thoughts ???  Thanks---------Bill

[mikesc]

Singer 20U33, preferably the one with the thread holder stand that unfolds from the back of the machine, not the one that has the thread holder on the top of the machine with the thread reel horizontal and parallel to the machine.
Parts are cheap, parts are easy to find, zig-zag is variable from 0 to 9 mm wide..zig-zag can be set to start from either left side or right side or to use the centre line..and the needle bar can also be "locked" to sew straight stitch..
Zig -zag "bight" ( width ) can also be varied while the machine is running ( this lets you do freehand embroidery ) by repositioning the Knee lifter bar system under the table to act on the stitch width controller..Takes less than 5 minutes and a small wrench ( spanner ) to do this..Working height ( sewing thickness available ) under the foot is around 6 to 8mm..mine sews the thicknesses that you need to with no problems. Usually has the slower ( 1750 RPM ) of the Singer clutch motors fitted as standard ( with an 80 or 90mm pulley )..so it is easier to control without fitting a servo motor, if it has the 1750 motor you can fit a 50mm pulley..slows it down still further..the motor shaft is tapered..so you need to get a 50mm pulley for tapered shaft.

HTH

you want this type..20U33 thread holder stand is at the back of the machine..can set the zig-zag on the machine face or vary it via the knee lifter...Not all 20U33 machines say 20U33 some just say 20U..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idix5audGjY

not this type
http://www.sewinginsight.com/singer/singer-20u-review/
thread holder is on the machine body..this model is older..zig-zag is not as wide..not all of them had the option of stitch width able to be controlled by the knee lifter..

Of course, if you could get one a Bernina would be even better..they can do 3 step zig-zag too ( but cannot be set to allow freehand ) and parts are waay more..likewise Necchi nice but hard to find..expensive parts..Juki ( various models ) ..but you'll pay more than for a Singer..other older Singers can do zig-zag, but they are older harder to get parts for , frequently sought after by embroiderers that work freehand , and so more expensive, later models are more expensive..Lot of 20U33s were made..used to be the ideal artisans "retouchers" machine, lot of them were used in small alterations and sewing businesses.

Edited October 3, 2017 by mikesc

[lazyd]

Thanks for the input. I'll check out the video and look around to see if any are available. ---------Bill

[Uwe]

There are modern day versions of the Singer 20Uxx series  (e.g. Singer 20U43 from Techsew for $800). The knee-operated zig-zag width adjustment is probably not an essential feature for patchwork rugs. Other vintage zig-zag machines might be good candidates as well, examples: Singer 107W3, Pfaff130, Pfaff 138-63, and others. 

These folks also appear to be using a vintage industrial zig-zag, but I can't quite tell what model that is just from the foot:

 

 

[mikesc]

Looks like the wrong fitting for it to be a 20U ( the screw is on the side on them )..the website of the rug manufacturer shows a better shot of the machine here.
https://mosaichides.com/ho-made/
Juki ? ( a guess based on the end plate on the head, and the colour ), and Juki LZ-1280 and LZ-2280 series machines have the foot attached that way, as does the Singer 107W 457U..Feet are interchangeable between those models.Maybe an older Juki..AFAIK the Singers 107s etc were black..the 20U series came in either of two shades of pale blue( my 20U33 is blue ), or "bronze" ( like my 211 ) or white. That machine looks to be the same "bronze" as my Juki .

This ad lists a lot of industrial zig-zag machines ( scroll down to see the machines that the foot will fit ) that have the foot attached in the way the rug company machine does.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compensating-Zig-Zag-Foot-Left-For-Singer-107W-457U-Juki-LZ-1280-LZ-2280-/162167318281

Edited October 4, 2017 by mikesc

[Uwe]

Yes, Ebay vendors will often do all the research for you. For LW archiving purposes, I copied the list of suitable industrial zig-zag machines from the Ebay ad below. I have a feeling that just about any of these machines can join two pieces of hair-on-hide leather:

Artisan : 457

Brother : B851, B852

Consew : 175RB, 275R, 276R, 347

Juki : LZ-271, LZ-391, LZ-582, LZ-583, LZ-583, LZ-1280, LZ-1285, LZ-1286, LZ-1287, LZ-1290, LZ-2280, LZ-2282, LZ-2284, LZ-2286, LZ-2290

Mitsubishi : LZ-710, LZ-720, LZ-760, LZ-780, LZ-790

Singer : 107G, 107W, 143G, 143W, 457W, 457U

Stager : DZ-S31

Toyota : AD550

Edited October 4, 2017 by Uwe

[DrmCa]

There is another popular "pseudo-industrial" zig-zag Singer out there to stay away from, but the model number escapes me. It's a glorified household machine which only looks like industrial, even though it comes with the K legs.

[mikesc]

You wouldn't be perchance thinking of the "sew wrong" ( known in some quarters as the "sailrite" ) a "pseudo-industrial" zig-zag if ever there was one..the Trabant ( or Reliant Robin ) of "sewing machines" ?

[dikman]

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

 ( or Reliant Robin ) of "sewing machines" ?

(I couldn't find a rolling-on-floor-laughing thingy).

[lazyd]

Wow Guys ! Thanks for all the info. Now I have to get busy and start looking in my area and see if there is anything available around here.  I didn't even know model numbers of zig zag machines before.  Thanks for the help. ------Bill

[trash treasure]

Another one to add to the list : Pfaff 438 - Really nice machines

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PFAFF-ZIG-ZAG-438-sewing-machine-Industrial-HEAVY-DUTY-Used-/162694648820?hash=item25e15b53f4:g:m8IAAOSwQm9Z0lex

[Hockeymender]

58 minutes ago, trash treasure said:

Another one to add to the list : Pfaff 438 - Really nice machines

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PFAFF-ZIG-ZAG-438-sewing-machine-Industrial-HEAVY-DUTY-Used-/162694648820?hash=item25e15b53f4:g:m8IAAOSwQm9Z0lex

Using one almost every day I can concur the 438 is a wonderful machine. 

[lazyd]

Me Again. A friend has a Pfaff 138-6. Anyone have experience with that machine?   Thanks-------------Bill

[Constabulary]

Excellent machine - I once owned one. But there are differences some have 4.5mm or 5mm zig zag and only very few have 6mm zigzag. Mine only had 4.5mm (measured). I now have a Singer 307G2 and I do not regret. 307G2 also is an excellent machine but you barely find parts (feet, hooks, bobbins and smaller bits are available). Timing belts are no longer available - however I personally prefer the 307G2.

Advantage of the 138 is that it has no timing belt but a problem with the 138 is that the Zig zag dial often is gummed up but with a heat gun and oil you can solve this. Other than that the 138 really is an excellent machine.

[lazyd]

11 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Excellent machine - I once owned one. But there are differences some have 4.5mm or 5mm zig zag and only very few have 6mm zigzag. Mine only had 4.5mm (measured). I now have a Singer 307G2 and I do not regret. 307G2 also is an excellent machine but you barely find parts (feet, hooks, bobbins and smaller bits are available). Timing belts are no longer available - however I personally prefer the 307G2.

Advantage of the 138 is that it has no timing belt but a problem with the 138 is that the Zig zag dial often is gummed up but with a heat gun and oil you can solve this. Other than that the 138 really is an excellent machine.

Thanks for your input on that machine. It's nice to know it would possibly be reliable. Maybe we should have a little wider zig-zag for what we will be doing...??? Anyone else have an opinion ?  ----------Bill

[Constabulary]

6mm ZZ is a good score already. There might be machines with wider ZZ (some Singer 20 models I guess) but most used industrial machines have 6mm ZZ or less.

[davehorseblanket]

How about the bernina 950? Would that be a stronger machine than the singer 20u33? 

[mikesc]

No..it has some plastic gear parts inside ( unless it is one of the old ones ) ..Singer 20U33 is all metal, you need something that can take the impact of sewing through leather and hides..Bernina is a "crafts machine" , not an industrial, it does stuff that you don't need ( buttonholes etc ) because it is built to sew textiles for craft workers, The singer 20u33 was also built for sewing textiles, but it was built to be used more heavily, and to sew thicker materials and more layers, it only does straight stitch and zig zags , but it will do them day in day out, and nothing plastic in there to expensively break.

Parts for Bernina 950s ( even the bobbins ) are expensive compared to Singer 20u33s, sewing horsehair scraps into rugs on a Bernina 950, you will be straining the machine, breaking parts or having them wear out quicker, the "down time" will be an additional cost over the parts.

Review of Bernina 950 here..read the comments too.
https://thoughtsfromaseamstress.blogspot.fr/2008/01/bernina-950-industrial-sewing-machine.html

I have a friend who is a sail maker , huge sail loft, runs a very expensive very long arm state of the art Adler as his main machine, he also has a Bernina 217 and an 850 for smaller sail work, loves them, ( they have no plastic parts, his 850 is an old one ), isn't interested in any 950.

Bought an Adler walking foot machine ( don't know which one ) for adding the leather ends to bags ( or whatever the huge sack that sails live in are called ) etc.

More about zig zag machines here
http://www.ashleyandthenoisemakers.com/blog/2015/5/7/bernina-217-review

Almost forgot..re the Pfaff 138..it is a "full size" industrial..the needle end is further from the "post" end than on the Singer 20U33( and many others )..so you may find it easier to work with that extra space under the "harp"..if you can find one.

Edited October 11, 2017 by mikesc

[GPaudler]

A couple of years ago I became obsessed with sewing eye splices in rope, which is common in the safety and rescue industry and also for arborist's rigging as an alternative to traditional hand-splicing. I happened upon a Brother TZ1-B652, which is rated for 12mm wide zigzag stitches but in my experience is closer to 10-11mm.

With minor and easily reversible modifications, it will now sew splices in 12mm rope that are stronger than the rated strength of the rope, about 8000lbs tensile strength. And not wanting to devote a lot of space to a machine to be used infrequently, I just mounted an old, 1amp domestic-style motor onto the machine. I sew two narrow, very close zigzag passes down in the groove formed by the two legs of rope and two full-width passes over that, about 3" long.

The original Sailright Sailmaker was the Brother TZ1-B652 with a larger hand wheel, hand-crank and machine-mounted motor in a custom wooden carrying case. I came-upon and bought one of those but the reality is that I don't need two (or even one) and would be pleased to sell it.

I also have a Pfaff 118, that will sew 10mm-wide zigzags, that I'd like to sell. It's missing the front cover and original hand wheel/belt pulley; the former owner removed them for some unknown reason, but it works fine. I'd sell the Brother for $700 and the Pfaff, without table or motor, for $300.

Gary

 

[davehorseblanket]

So from what I am reading here the singer 20u33 is a decent machine, other info I read online kinda scared me away from it, i read it wouldn't do more than tex40 thread, I was hoping to use at least tex70 or 90, I don't need speed, I like servo motors,  seems like I've seen a few for sale locally. 

[lazyd]

Thanks again Guys for all the Good information. It really helps.  Keep it coming !-------Bill

[mikesc]

Singer 20U33 will run Tex 90 ( 92 ) thread..it's max needle size is often given as 19, but it will run 21/22 needles, thus can run Tex 135 ( 138 ) , but you wont get a lot of 138 on the bobbin, and you'll not want to be running it fast with 138 in, especially not if you have the zig zag set wide.

[davehorseblanket]

How about thoughts on a pfaff 332, its not an industrial, but I've seen some stuff online making it sound like a really tough machine, thanks much for all the info, it has been very helpful in my search for a zig zag machine

[mikesc]

No..Doesn't matter what you heard / read ..just ..No.

[ljk]

Ok I'm on tonight.   Suggestions for bottom feed with zig zag the Zoje 20u93.  Gives 9mm width

zig zag, also has that neat ability to move zigzag width with knee lift.  Boot top stitchers  could

use this for creative designs.  Big learning curve, would work for free motion quilters.

Next the sailrite, thompson miniwalkjer, version with walking foot and zig zag.  On shoes and

boots I use a zig zag for sewing linings.  My linings are top grain and I need no overlaps.

This machine gives good even feeding characteristics.  I use one in my embroidery business

to sew twill to paper so the bottom doesn't chase the paper so hooped material stays flat.

By the way I think Zoje is the current Singer 20u maker.