Singer 241 bad stitches

[Sledzep01]

Just threaded up my machine for the first time. 92 bonded nylon.

#20?? needles?

I keep breaking thread even if the tensioner is rattling loose. there are 3 holes on the machine I have used all 3 every way I could and switched to only two...

Discovered that it is never tight before the tightener.

The thread was seeming to pull easily, it certainly pulls easily from the bobbin. I have followed all directions, and tried 3 diff bobbins

The machine thread keeps breaking leaving me with the mess below.

The darker leather is the bottom bobbin side

what needs adjusting?? Heeeeeellllllpppppp

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

If those thread loops are the bobbin thread coming out the top, increase the bobbin tension. If that is the top thread coming out on the bottom, increase the top tension.

Also, I recommend downsizing to #69 thread, top and bobbin, with a #18 needle.

[Sledzep01]

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

If those thread loops are the bobbin thread coming out the top, increase the bobbin tension. If that is the top thread coming out on the bottom, increase the top tension.

Also, I recommend downsizing to #69 thread, top and bobbin, with a #18 needle.

Really? I trust you and will do it, it just seems so tight through there already. Maybe the thread is stronger than I think.

Also, if you look at the bottom/brown side you can see that the feed dogs are leaving marks on the leather, Does that mean that there is too much pressure and I should back it off??

[Uwe]

There may be more than one thing wrong. Bottom loops have two major causes in my experience: loss of top thread tension, or top thread snagging/catching somewhere during the stitch cycle.  

I highly doubt the bobbin tension is causing this. It's much more likely in my mind that your bottom loops are forming because your top thread tension goes missing entirely for some reason. Check to make sure your tension release mechanism is working properly. 

I was working on a Pfaff 145 yesterday that occasionally had loops at the bottom. On my machine, the culprit turned out to be a thread tension release mechanism that occasionally got stuck in the "release" position after lifting the feet to make a turn.

Your upper thread tension discs should definitely NOT be "wiggly" loose when you sew. Please post some pictures of your full upper thread path (spool to needle) and maybe a video snippet or two of your machine sewing (it may take two people to do that.)

Here's a picture of what my bottom stitch looked like - note the loops right after a corner, with perfect stitches elsewhere. 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Uwe

[CowboyBob]

Yes,too loose upper thread will do this,so will the bobbincase position bracket if it isn't adjusted to allow the thread to pass(this is the part that keeps the inner hook basket from turning) take the needle plate off & turn it by hand with #92 in the needle & see if it catches as it goes past the little finger.If it catches,loosen the screw on it & adj it away from the hook alittle or sometimes you just have to bend it,a little @ a time to get it right.

[Sledzep01]

55 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

you just have to bend it,a little @ a time to get it right.

Your a Pro Bob, don't you mean "Reform it"   BadumpBump! Tsch!

 

I will check all of this, thanx guys

[Sledzep01]

2 hours ago, Uwe said:

There may be more than one thing wrong. Bottom loops have two major causes in my experience: loss of top thread tension, or top thread snagging/catching somewhere during the stitch cycle.  

I highly doubt the bobbin tension is causing this. It's much more likely in my mind that your bottom loops are forming because your top thread tension goes missing entirely for some reason. Check to make sure your tension release mechanism is working properly. 

I was working on a Pfaff 145 yesterday that occasionally had loops at the bottom. On my machine, the culprit turned out to be a thread tension release mechanism that occasionally got stuck in the "release" position after lifting the feet to make a turn.

Your upper thread tension discs should definitely NOT be "wiggly" loose when you sew. Please post some pictures of your full upper thread path (spool to needle) and maybe a video snippet or two of your machine sewing (it may take two people to do that.)

Here's a picture of what my bottom stitch looked like - note the loops right after a corner, with perfect stitches elsewhere. 

 

No matter how tight I made them they wiggled. I am sure they are together right, it's as if a washer was missing or something. the thread was literally running on the shaft.

I added a washer at the machine side and was able to tighten to make them meet and have adjustment capability... Without it they wiggle when tightened to the end of the threads on the bolt. I will look at the parts manual to see if something official is missing.

Is it possible the discs have flattened over the years??

I am sure I am following the manual for the thread path. The only changes I made was to use fewer  (Just 2 in different ways) of the 3 where you make the S shape. I used less because it broke and I thought I had Too Much upper tension.

The stitches did not change, they just went further before the TOP thread broke

Sled

 

[Wizcrafts]

First, loosen the screw holding the unit in the body and pull it out slightly. See if the disks tighten as you pull it out of the housing. If so, the culprit could be the push rod in the body that causes the tension to release. Or, the metal tab it pushes against could be bent too far inwards, or even reversed. There should be free play in that thin rod before it hits the tension release plate. That should only happen when you lift the feet manually, or via the knee lever. Otherwise, the disks should close completely and be tensionable via the beehive spring.

I think you should consider ordering a complete replacement top tension unit.

[Sledzep01]

9 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

First, loosen the screw holding the unit in the body and pull it out slightly. See if the disks tighten as you pull it out of the housing. If so, the culprit could be the push rod in the body that causes the tension to release. Or, the metal tab it pushes against could be bent too far inwards, or even reversed. There should be free play in that thin rod before it hits the tension release plate. That should only happen when you lift the feet manually, or via the knee lever. Otherwise, the disks should close completely and be tensionable via the beehive spring.

I think you should consider ordering a complete replacement top tension unit.

Bought, thank you.

is there a trick to installing? or just screw it in?

 

Thnx Sled

[Uwe]

There's probably a set screw somewhere that holds the tension unit in place. Maybe you just need to move the tension unit out of the body a small distance to make everything work, as Wiz suggested.

If the problem originates elsewhere in the tension release mechanism, replacing the tension unit itself may not fix your problem. 

You really need to investigate if everything moves the way it should when you raise the foot lift lever. Take off the cover plate and look at all the linkages the foot lift lever moves (or should move). One of them will press against the pin on the rear of the tension unit to separate the tension disks. You should be able to see the disk move a tiny bit when you raise the foot lift lever. Take some pictures around your tension unit so we can add an arrow or two to explain things. Don't make us beg.

This video also shows nicely how this machine should be threaded:

 

 

[Uwe]

This video shows, among other things, how to remove the tension unit and how the tension release pin works:

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Uwe

[Sledzep01]

7 minutes ago, Uwe said:

There's probably a set screw somewhere that holds the tension unit in place. Maybe you just need to move the tension unit out of the body a small distance to make everything work, as Wiz suggested.

If the problem originates elsewhere in the tension release mechanism, replacing the tension unit itself may not fix your problem. 

You really need to investigate if everything moves the way it should when you raise the foot lift lever. Take off the cover plate and look at all the linkages the foot lift lever moves (or should move). One of them will press against the pin on the rear of the tension unit to separate the tension disks. You should be able to see the disk move a tiny bit when you raise the foot lift lever. Take some pictures around your tension unit so we can add an arrow or two to explain things. Don't make us beg.

This video also shows nicely how this machine should be threaded:

 

 

I know his, and that video well.

I understand what you mean I will check it but already bought the unit too, mine looked like it needed to be polished anyway and I want it to get set right in the beginning so later all is smooth

 

Thank you

Sled

[Uwe]

If, after watching that last video above, you can't figure out how to remove or install that thread tension unit, then my advice is to step away from the machine and let somebody else perform maintenance tasks. 

[DrmCa]

Is the machine threaded correctly? Is the thread clean of dust/pollen and from a new cone? Is the bobbin wound and inserted correctly? Is the shuttle hook clean of dust and pollen? Is the machine lubed correctly?

[Sledzep01]

55 minutes ago, Uwe said:

If, after watching that last video above, you can't figure out how to remove or install that thread tension unit, then my advice is to step away from the machine and let somebody else perform maintenance tasks. 

Had it out twice already now. You? were right, it was not being touched when I lifted the foot. But I still broke thread after I adjusted it to be touched. Now about to watch again because I am not picking up the bobbin thread...I now have the little bar touching at rest and want to try again. I really believe my thread was diving down between the tension discs before this...

Certainly not time to step away yet. I am very mechanical, BUT the only sewing knowledge I gained in the last 2 weeks.

Wish my Mom was still with me. She worked for singer back in the day and made all her clothes, all our suits etc.

Forget Halloween or the school play I had it all. Now I dont even know how to wind a Bobbin!!

Sewing first, I need stitches!!

Thanks for everyone helping! I would probably be done by now if I had some OMN's (Old Man Needles)

Sled

 

[Sledzep01]

1 hour ago, DrmCa said:

Is the machine threaded correctly? Is the thread clean of dust/pollen and from a new cone? Is the bobbin wound and inserted correctly? Is the shuttle hook clean of dust and pollen? Is the machine lubed correctly?

1, yes I think so. I really do.

2, Thread given to me with machine, all older I guess, certainly dusty cones, I dusted this one and the thread LOOKS perfect to me. I have certainly wasted enough to be past the outer part down to fresh...

3, According to what I see online the bobbin is correct.

4, I think? I have cleaned and wiped everywhere I can find and reach.

5, according to others (Cowboy Bob) the one drip a second I get in the window at high speed (empty of thread) is OK. I have read the entire parts and owners manual watched a ton of videos about many machines and believe it is lubing correctly.

## The stitch is set to the middle of what it will do.

### The machine seems to purr like a kitten. Very Smooth and quiet. It just will not stitch YET!!

BUT

I am still fraying threads in three motions up and down (By hand) I was getting horrible stitches when this started.... 

I wish I was receiving stitches now.

I have had the thread tensioner out 4 times, re adjusted so when I lift the foot it makes contact an opens a little.

Anything I touch I wipe and clean and put back exactly as I removed it, including the Feed dogs, I have adjusted the foot tension (correctly I believe)

My thread is NOT on a stand, but is Jury rigged to work exactly as I see it in the videos up off the spool to a little clean wire loop and back to the machine.

When the bobbin holder?? is out of the machine and threaded with the Bobbin it flows out of there very easily. MUCH easier than the thread at any point south of the 3 loops you make the S on.

I think I need to go through the timing video 30 more times and do it again. It cannot be that the thread does not have enough tension.Not anymore since the tips I received and steps I took with the tensioner. The washer from way at the beginning is gone and it gets tight like it should.

I believe it has something to do with the timing in the Bobbin shuttle??

BUT

I am having fun. I have not repaired anything mechanical in a long time. 

 

Does thread go bad? I posted a WTT because I have 12 rolls of this same thread in differing amounts on what started as 1lb spools (1 full) If It Does, I will remove that post immediately

[DrmCa]

Thread should not leave the shuttle too easily. There should be considerable force required to pull either thread - not much, but you should feel the resistance. More on the top.

It is fraying thread... Try stitching different materials, for instance some light to medium textiles. Try size 18 needle with TEX27-40 thread. If the problem goes away, try on lighter leather. I had the exact same issue when tried stitching leather which was too heavy.

[dirtclod]

I'd try some different thread especially if what you have is old. It won't cost much and if it doesn't help you will still have some new thread. 

[Sledzep01]

23 minutes ago, DrmCa said:

Thread should not leave the shuttle too easily. There should be considerable force required to pull either thread - not much, but you should feel the resistance. More on the top.

It is fraying thread... Try stitching different materials, for instance some light to medium textiles. Try size 18 needle with TEX27-40 thread. If the problem goes away, try on lighter leather. I had the exact same issue when tried stitching leather which was too heavy.

Hmmm, I have some other thread but not industrial.. I do have other needles, this one is new

7 minutes ago, dirtclod said:

I'd try some different thread especially if what you have is old. It won't cost much and if it doesn't help you will still have some new thread. 

No new thread yet, on the way though

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, Sledzep01 said:

 I do have other needles, this one is new

I don't recall seeing anybody mention this before, including me, but, are you inserting the needle all the way up in the clamp, with the ribbed side on the left and the cutout scarf over the eye on the right?

[Sledzep01]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

I don't recall seeing anybody mention this before, including me, but, are you inserting the needle all the way up in the clamp, with the ribbed side on the left and the cutout scarf over the eye on the right?

Yes I am doing it that way

[Sledzep01]

PROGRESS!!

If you are reading this consider it that it was YOUR advice that did it. I have done so much I do not know who helped the most but thank you all. I actually stitched a few inches (runaway train style) before the needle came out and broke. The top was out... needle broke.

I think that is too much leather but at least there are stitches!! not perfect yet.

The Bobbin is now a lot tighter to pull, I re timed it (not great, again in AM) I still believe that the new tensioner assembly will help.

even with the foot up... and BEFORE threading the needle sometime it will get very tight to pull, and then loosen again. I think it is the dirt/rust look on the shaft and plates. I may polish them tomorrow to see. But not before testing the current set up on something lighter.

It may have been me panicking that broke the needle (third one today, the other 2 I was just trying to pull thread through it!)

Tan pic is the top side, brown the bottom.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Sledzep01
Spelling

[Sledzep01]

I am still fraying/breaking the top thread while it looks too loose on the bottom.

I sewed some light material (a microfiber rag single thickness) and it still happened.

 

Sled

[Sledzep01]

5 hours ago, Sledzep01 said:

I am still fraying/breaking the top thread while it looks too loose on the bottom.

I sewed some light material (a microfiber rag single thickness) and it still happened.

 

Sled

Would a broken Needle Bar Thread Guard do this??

I just realized there was supposed to be some sort of guie there, not a jagged broken piece of wire....

Ordered from Singer parts

Sled