Handmade machine stitched?

[robs456]

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

If you want to be strict about it, "handmade" is defined as made with tools and not machines.  I'd say a sewing machine is a... well, a machine!

Yes, that's what I tried to convey above in the woodworking comparison.
While electrical tools are used they're still just tools allowing YOU to do the work better, while the sewing machine does the work for you.
 

 

[updn]

Good points yin and dun....yes I would definitely not called a machine stitched item hand stitched or saddle stitched that definitely is misleading...and of course you have to point out the advantages and disadvantages of hand or machine stitched to your customers as there mostly is little knowledge of these advantage or disadvantages...and of course a saddle stitched item must cost more.....a luggage bag shows a very big price difference but maybe a wallet that is hand stitched take less time, is of course more durable and less costly because of little sewing time...anyway the saddle stitching is so relaxing.....I think and you are even more pleased with a good outcome....I prefer using my barry king awl and doing ever stitch individually...

Charles

[robs456]

3 hours ago, YinTx said:

"Handmade" is difficult to quantify.  Thus the ability to answer the question "should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?" is equally difficult  if not impossible to answer.

This discussion has been great for me, as in kind of changing my views on things a bit. 

Per definition, if someone uses a sewing machine on any item, that item is not handmade. Not to a 100%, whatever you say about all the other steps in the process.
But reading the replies in this thread I now do think it might be OK in certain cases. But how to quantify and draw a limit?
Is it handmade if machines are used for 10% or less of the SCOPE of a project? Or 10% or less of the TIME taken on a project? Or 49%? Or is it due to the look of it, like mentioned above where a machine stitch was used for all hidden seams and hand stitching was used for the visible seams?

Like YinTx says, it's difficult to the point of impossible to set a limit once you stray from the 'all or nothing' mindset.
I think it would be up to the customer to observe and understand and to the maker to present and market honestly (like not saying it's saddle stitched when it's lock stitched for example).    

Personally I think it's OK to say a carved long wallet or MC seat is hand made even if machine sewn, but calling a simple cardholder -where there's four pieces sewn together by machine and then machine edged- handmade is stretching it too much no matter how many hands were guiding the machines.

 

[tomsmith85717]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

 

If you study and apply the continuous process of improvement (kaizen), you work to eliminate waste (muda).  One of those wastes you may recall is incorrect processing.  One way to identify that is to see what a customer will pay for.  If a customer won't pay for hand stitching or skiving by round knife, you should not be doing it.  Hence no eyeglasses sleeve or dopp kit needs to be saddle stitched for indestructible qualities. No disagreement from me.

 

 

YinTx

If our paths cross let me offer to buy you a drink and have a  chat.

I struggle with this my self. I will absolutely say I hand craft everything I do. but I machine stitch which deters me from saying hand made. I dont think that my lack of hand stitching degrades my product. in fact it probably makes it better. I still have a hard time between hand made and machine stitched. Where I do see a clear line is between slave/coerced labor and that of an artisan. I dont make mine to simply meet a piece rate. I make mine to fulfill my vision in the way I want it to be constructed . Could I farm my stuff out to India and say I design them my self sure but I couldnt sleep at night knowing what i did. I really think this is only  a leather worker problem or at least a leather snob problem. What if I laser cut everything either laser cut slits or pricking marks and then stitched them It would double the time could i double my price would I be able to  live off of them... I dont want to try or find out. I think I will stick to the term hand crafted.

[RockyAussie]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

"Handmade" is difficult to quantify.  Thus the ability to answer the question "should someone who machine stitches call something handmade?" is equally difficult  if not impossible to answer.

This is true and I think the term "hand made" is not the bigger issue. I do a lot of work that many would call hand made, including myself, but I have never bothered to brand it that way, or even make such a claim. Making a product that looks and performs  better than another, and if  the cost is acceptable is more important in my world. The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made". You could forever argue what machine is acceptable to use and still call it "Hand made" but what a person wants and how well I can help them with that, is what keeps me and my business going.

[robs456]

12 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made"

Does it matter? 
So a machine makes a canvas, and another makes a brush, is the art then machine made? Most would credit the artist for making the painting.
 

But if the same artist designs something in Illustrator and then print it out on a printer, did he then make a painting?

 

[tomsmith85717]

N

9 minutes ago, robs456 said:

Does it matter? 
So a machine makes a canvas, and another makes a brush, is the art then machine made? Most would credit the artist for making the painting.
 

But if the same artist designs something in Illustrator and then print it out on a printer, did he then make a painting?

 

No, they made digital art. but what you are really asking is their effort less valuable than someone who put brush to canvas and moved  paint around.  Hand  made is an inefficient thing of the past but what, where & how do we find the true value in our skill and craft  then translate that into a way for the customer to understand... that is the real crux of the question as anything else is just quantification of a buzz word.

Edited February 5, 2018 by tomsmith85717
deplorable keyboard on $200 laptop

[tomsmith85717]

31 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

This is true and I think the term "hand made" is not the bigger issue. I do a lot of work that many would call hand made, including myself, but I have never bothered to brand it that way, or even make such a claim. Making a product that looks and performs  better than another, and if  the cost is acceptable is more important in my world. The base product leather we work with could could rarely be called "Hand made". The tools whatever they are we use, are rarely "Hand made". You could forever argue what machine is acceptable to use and still call it "Hand made" but what a person wants and how well I can help them with that, is what keeps me and my business going.

And how you can authentically make beautiful things that help live better. I truly think that most people who are searching "hand made" things are really looking for things made to last that are also made with integrity and intention. When you see jeans for less than $30 you have to think who didnt get to eat so that I could get these at this price... sames goes for leather goods.  If our paths cross, I too would buy you a drink and offer an chat.

[robs456]

20 minutes ago, tomsmith85717 said:

but what you are really asking is their effort less valuable than someone who put brush to canvas and moved  paint around.

No I'm not, value isn't part of my post, it's about whether we should classify the work/product after how the material was made. The value is discussed elsewhere  above.

[tomsmith85717]

So then, no if any non hand tool is used it cant be hand made. Its that cut and dry. Or at least that is where any argument begins... anything after that just justifies ego and technicalities.  Unless some government out there has codified a quantifiable number, but if another government comes out with a different number then what? But what is hand made other than a value added proposition or something to say to make someone feel good? If it isnt a legal distinction?

 

I should point out I am sick with the flu, cant sleep and really enjoying the philosophy in action.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by tomsmith85717