Flat back holsters .. Pricing?

[Boriqua]

If you are selling your work I have a question. I personally love Flat back holsters for my personal use. They have pluses and minuses like every other design and they are not great for every gun type but for my purposes .. they are perfect. I can wear a semi auto in a flat back all day and its as comfortable as all get go.

Funny thing is my very first holsters years and years ago were flat back because I only had some pictures to reference ... pre internet .. and thought that is how they must be made.

So on to my question

I would like to offer it as an option but it is a bit more work than a 50/50. I make a ton of 50/50's but would love to offer the flat backs because .. I like them and so might some of the people who contact me and if I am doing this I want to offer the best product for your needs.

If you make both 50/50 and flat back .. are you charging something extra for the flat back and if so can you give me an idea how much?

I have to develop patterns for all the molds I have and produce test runs for each but I have already done a few and I don't expect any potential buyer to foot the cost for that but I was thinking it is worth an extra $10?? That covers the extra work and I think it covers the cost someone might be willing to pay for the extra bit of detail and comfort.

Would love to hear from other sellers!

[Lobo]

Offering optional features, such as your flatback pancake design, can be a good way to increase profitability (those who desire such features are usually ready to pay a little more to get what they want). Your customers will always set your prices for you. In saying that what I am trying to communicate is the process of establishing your price point.

During my years in the business I started out as a small part-time sideline business, producing a few pieces on request for other cops I worked with. Pricing was fairly easy to do; all I had to do was keep my prices a little bit under the big name producers and I had no problems selling my products.

Later on the business became a full-time endeavor; actually more than full-time because I worked 7 days per week, usually 10 to 14 hours per day, for the last 9 years or so before retiring, and also had hired help assisting with production work. I regularly had pending orders equal to my capacity to produce for 8 to 16 weeks. I found that there were two variables that allowed me to control the flow of new orders and keep the backlog at reasonable levels. Those variables were PRICE and DELIVERY TIME.

In my experience each of those variables have a direct effect on order volume. Some folks are willing to wait several weeks, perhaps a few months, to get what they want; other customers lose interest if they can't get it right away. Some folks are willing to pay top dollar for what they want; others are reluctant to order unless they think they are getting a bargain.

Basically, what I learned is that each week added to delivery time would reduce order volume by about 5%, and each price increase of 10% would reduce order volume by about 10%. The key, for me, was keeping delivery times as reasonable as possible while setting prices that kept order volume within the production capacity achievable within that delivery time.

The final result, for me, was promised delivery times of about 8 to 10 weeks and a price structure that yielded an average of 40 orders per week (2,000 delivered per year with an average backlog of 320 to 400 pending orders). That kept us busy, but it was within our abilities to produce and the profits were optimum for the time invested. The math is pretty easy, too: 50 orders at $70 per is $3500 gross sales, while 40 orders at $80 per is $3200 gross sales, but 50 orders takes 25% more production time, materials, and supplies so the $300 difference becomes a pretty small factor, especially when you are working 60 hours per week instead of 80 or more. Of course, production time is not the only time requirement; nearly as much time is required for business admin, accounting, paying the bills, advertising, maintaining inventory, ordering supplies, etc.

When I knew that my help was scheduling a vacation in July I knew that I could start quoting longer delivery times in April, which caused order volume to trend downward, so we could catch up on the backlog and allow some slack time for the planned vacation. When I saw the backlog of orders dropping (which predictably happens at certain times of the year) I knew that I could offer some sales (10% off on the order of a holster with matching belt, or similar) and stimulate new orders to keep the work flow moving efficiently.

When I finally made the decision to retire I actually stopped taking new orders in August, 2015 for retirement November, 2015. Then a buyer appeared for the business, so we got busy and moved the shop from Colorado to Iowa, and had the new owners in full production by the second week of November. The new owners continue to grow the business within their capacity to produce, and as their business consultant I continue to recommend using the variables of delivery times and prices to keep everything inside that capacity.

Of course, now that I am a 'consultant' I have to dress better, sometimes shave every week! Never had to worry about such things while I was pounding hides in the shop all the time!

[Boriqua]

Thank you so much for your well thought out and thorough response. A little bit ago I was actually busier than I want to be. I had my career filled with crazy hours and working days on end and this is just something in retirement to make a few bucks and have fun.

To think I started selling leatherwork to help pay for art supplies when I attended the School of Visual arts and years later after a wild and wolly ride working in art and design creating large scale exhibits .... I am back to making leather things. Came full circle

I did what you suggested about 2 months ago. I increased my lead time quotes to 4 weeks. I almost always deliver faster than that but it took some pressure off. I have a fair following and so far no one has been put off by the extra time quote and my feeling is if you need it faster .. there is always the store. I want to remain a craftsman. Having run a couple of departments and businesses I sometimes feel the tug to go nuts and get machines and employees and ..... and then remember .. I had enough of all that and if I can sell 20 holsters a month I am a happy dude.

I have found a great spot on pricing where my goods almost never sit  and I feel adequately compensated . To date I don't think I have lost a potential sale due to pricing but I still get the occasional person who wants to know if the pricing changes with multiple purchases. I don't mind. Never hurts to ask. I see guys charging much more and I have customers tell me I don't charge enough but I would rather get paid and have my stuff being used somewhere than looking at inventory on a shelf that I don't profit from and no one gets to enjoy.

At the same time ... I dont want to feel like a shlub and not charge where I should and while the big time eater in flat back is pattern development it is certainly a bit more work to make.

I am building my new website and I am putting up a list of options and what those options might cost. This way when someone has initial contact with me at least they already have a feel for where the pricing will be and what I offer. I figure its never a bad idea to offer more options. I for one LOVE when I have multiple things to choose from as it makes me feel a bit more in control and part of the process and its the reason someone goes to a one off guy instead of just buying off the shelf.

Again bro... Thank you so much for your valuable input!!

Oh .. and I am pretty stoked about not having to shave or comb my hair anymore!!! 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Boriqua

[koreric75]

On 4/4/2018 at 5:54 PM, Boriqua said:

If you are selling your work I have a question. I personally love Flat back holsters for my personal use. They have pluses and minuses like every other design and they are not great for every gun type but for my purposes .. they are perfect. I can wear a semi auto in a flat back all day and its as comfortable as all get go.

Funny thing is my very first holsters years and years ago were flat back because I only had some pictures to reference ... pre internet .. and thought that is how they must be made.

So on to my question

I would like to offer it as an option but it is a bit more work than a 50/50. I make a ton of 50/50's but would love to offer the flat backs because .. I like them and so might some of the people who contact me and if I am doing this I want to offer the best product for your needs.

If you make both 50/50 and flat back .. are you charging something extra for the flat back and if so can you give me an idea how much?

I have to develop patterns for all the molds I have and produce test runs for each but I have already done a few and I don't expect any potential buyer to foot the cost for that but I was thinking it is worth an extra $10?? That covers the extra work and I think it covers the cost someone might be willing to pay for the extra bit of detail and comfort.

Would love to hear from other sellers!

I've found the easiest most economical way to do this is to do the 50/50 with 8/9oz for the front and 5/6oz  or 4/5oz if it's a medium-heavy hand for the back, mold like normal then use another stiff backer 4/5oz to make it flat across the back.  Much easier than trying to split molds or mold a 100%, at least until i get a vac mold setup.  But i just like being able to stitch the lines before hand.  

https://imgur.com/a/Mh9qf

[Boriqua]

14 minutes ago, koreric75 said:

I've found the easiest most economical way to do this is to do the 50/50 with 8/9oz for the front and 5/6oz  or 4/5oz if it's a medium-heavy hand for the back, mold like normal then use another stiff backer 4/5oz to make it flat across the back.  Much easier than trying to split molds or mold a 100%, at least until i get a vac mold setup.  But i just like being able to stitch the lines before hand.  

https://imgur.com/a/Mh9qf

I am not sure I get it. Did you get it backwards in the description and you are using a 8/9 oz back and lighter front?

Here is a double layer glock holster with flat back. I have modified my pattern so the front is designed to fit . This is 4/5 oz glued back to back to 4/5 oz for both the front and the back. It gives me a nice smooth interior which I feel draws nicer and is a bit nicer to the guns finish. It also maintains its shape better and longer.

My front piece is longer than my back of course but I glue the pieces from the edges in.What happens is the back piece is bent on an inward curve when dry. I can still plot all my holes and hand stitch it just fine. The trick is .. I only wet and wet well the front piece when I go to wetmold and I use a press with  foam on top and a hard backer. I also mold in a sight channel which I dont really have to do with a 50/50

This particular holster is my own and I wear it most of the day. Most comfortable holster I have ever worn and its several months old in that picture.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Boriqua

[koreric75]

2 hours ago, Boriqua said:

Did you get it backwards in the description and you are using a 8/9 oz back and lighter front?

Nope, I do it just like I put in the post, the heavy piece is the front of the 50/50, the back is made up of two layers of the thinner leather, only the inner thinner leather gets shape in the 50/50 part, if you notice in the pics from the album, the stitch lines for the slide and trigger guard are only visible from the front, the outer layer of the back gets glued and stitched along the outside and around the loop holes.   Not saying it's how you should do it, just offering up my version of flat backed holster that is the same in materials and labor as my 50/50, so I don't need to worry about adjusting price, and still give the customer an option.  Your holster is a good looking product, I do like the idea of making the outside back layer just a tad narrower to draw it in more, but hasn't been an issue unless it's in a flimsy belt. I also skive the inside of the loops on the back, and the outside of the loops on the front, that helps keep with that.

@Lobo that was an awesome breakdown of economics in leatherwork, I'm still new and only do items by word of mouth and charge enough to replenish supplies etc.  I hope to one day make it my post retirement income supplement.  Going on 22 years active duty AF, and see the light at the end if that tunnel approaching quickly.  It's the perfect time to learn and try to get my processes down, hasn't really delved too deeply on the business side, I copied your post to PDF as I'm sure I'll reference it often.

[Dwight]

My $.02, . . . I make both, . . . flat backed and 50/50.

I charge the same price, . . . because I have a different process for each, . . . and basically each uses the same amount of leather, dye, finish, etc.

All flat back holsters are run through my vacuum process which basically makes the front.  When that dries, . . . it is glued, trimmed, and sewn.

I cannot justify charging my customer more for something that does not cost me any more to produce than another product.  It gives my customer a choice that HE chooses based on preference without having to go thru the hassle in his mind about is the extra price worth it.  

In the long run, I believe this makes for a happier and more well pleased customer base.  

Happy customers always will be your best sales people.  Unhappy customers, no matter what makes them unhappy, will never help your business.

May God bless,

Dwight

[JLSleather]

15 hours ago, Boriqua said:

This particular holster is my own and I wear it

I have NO answer for what somebody else should charge for their stuff - not my business, not my thing.  But I will say that's a nice lookin' holster rot cheer... I like the stitch line a bit closer to the edge, especially at the top, but that does look good.

[Boriqua]

I asked for thoughts and I am very happy to have received them all whether they support what is going on in my head or refute it.

I will add though just for the sake of anyone else having a conundrum on pricing. Material cost is usually not the driver of final cost of a product. I recently had to repair the AC unit in my car. The local guys quoted between $750 and $900. I decided I would just repair it myself and it cost me about $100 in parts. So what was the other $800 it would have cost at the Mechanic.... their skill, time and education and I personally don't fault them that.

I dabble in pinstripe and recently watched an artist do some work on a gas tank. It took her about 15-20 minutes for which she charged $200. Material cost was probably about $1. Duly impressed with her work I asked her how long she had been at it. She informed me she had been doing pinstriping for about 4 years. So that tank didn't take 15 minutes .. it took 4 years and 15 minutes and was worth every penny.

My prices are so reasonable I have people who buy from me that throw me extra or tell me I don't charge enough and if I were simply a shlub throwing together pieces of leather than I agree it might not be worth more to use more of my time but ... I sweat the details and try to make every piece beautiful. I have been at this for a couple of decades. If my method for producing a flat back I think is the best method and it takes me 30 minutes more time to do it ... should I not be compensated? Or should I resort to another faster method I don't think is as good?

Sometimes an internet board isnt the best place to explore these issues because you cant get a persons inflections but I assure everyone .. I am not looking to argue and truly value all the input but ... I think it could use discussing and just want to throw that out. I dont think anyone is paying for the $8 dollars worth of leather and dye when they buy from me .. they are paying for my time and experience and what little skill I have.

Thanks for the kind words Jeff.. I rarely get to make anything for myself. I am going to try and get some better pix today but its a plain jane double layer holster but I bet you can see some of your influences in there.

Alex

Edited April 10, 2018 by Boriqua

[fredk]

I cannot say just what you should charge. What I'll say is how I used to charge in my other businesses for bespoke or special items. I'd look and see what others are charging - but maybe not actually getting - I'd reckon mine was 2000% better and I'd charge anything from 2 times to 10 times the average asking price. Often I'd get that price, sometimes not. Often I'd get told 'so & so is only charging so much' so I'd tell them to go buy from 'so & so'. Only one in 100 customers were that way. Another group of customers I did business with always wanted a discount. For them I'd hike the price up then we would haggle till they got a price they were happy with and their discount, but still way high from my view

In other words; do not undervalue your time, your creativity, your skill. Ask for as much as you possibly can, then if absolutely necessary give a reluctant discount

Do not, never ever, cut corners on your work. It'll show. Be happy in the methods and styles you do. If you are happy/content with the way you make things, on how you finish it, your heart will be in it and it will show in the finished item

An old joke; a man's car was running badly. He took it to a garage. Mechanic lifted the hood, reached in with a tiny screwdriver and turned something. The mechanic tells the man 'that'll be $100' 'What' says the man 'a hundred bucks and all you did was twiddle a screwdriver, and that only took 2 minutes!!' The mechanic tells him 'twiddling with the screwdriver costs $1, the other $99 is for me knowing what to twiddle'

Skill costs money; the worker is worth his pay

PS; #1 son has been having a go at me lately cos he thinks I'm charging way to low for my leather items. He reckons my prices need to go up by x5 at least

 

[Josh Ashman]

Hello Alex,

For what it's worth, my thoughts are that if your process for building a flat back takes an extra 30 minutes or so I think adding an additional $15 to $25 is what I would do. I also agree with what Dwight had to say, where his flat back process doesn't add any time for him I can see why he wouldn't bother with charging any more. 

I charge more for tooled stuff. The reason being that it takes more time. It's the same leather, dye and thread but the time investment increases. The dollar amount I mention above is in line with what I add for a similar amount of tooling time. 

All the best, 

Josh 

[SouthernCross]

Lobo, I'd like to hire you as a consultant in the future to help me turn my leather "hobby" into a part-time retirement "job".