Help with thread size understanding and selection

[Mhicks]

Finally getting ready to set up the Adler 267-gk373 and Singer 107w1 that I bought a few months ago and I'm not sure I have my head wrapped around the thread sizes

Book for the Adler 267 list a Nm 30/3 thread which should be metric count correct?

While the Singer book shows a cotton thread size of 24-100 depending on the needle.

From what I can tell either the #207 or #277 thread size will work in both machines but I'm just not sure if I have converted them right. Figured on ordering poly for the machines,  I will be doing leather, canvas and some vinyl for boat seats

[Wizcrafts]

Somebody has misled you regarding the thread size capacities of these two machines. The maximum for the Adler would be #138 and for the Singer, about #92. That 30/3 is 3 plies of thin cotton twisted together. It would resemble button hole thread at the most.

Here is a thread and needle chart to help you with thread sizes vs dimensions.

[Mhicks]

Can't say there is anyone to blame for misleading me,  I was just messing up the conversions for one reason or another but thank you for the info.  Going to order each size and see how they work out.

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Mhicks said:

Can't say there is anyone to blame for misleading me,  I was just messing up the conversions for one reason or another but thank you for the info.  Going to order each size and see how they work out.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I did some research and learned that 30/3 thread is close to the diameter of T60, which is a non-standard size. That means it is slightly thinner than b69 (T70).

[Uwe]

Don't feel bad about getting the thread size conversion wrong. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for years. Since the best way to learn something is trying to teach somebody else, I'll have a go at it.

The Adler 267 brochure lists the specs below, which is probably where you saw the "30/3" 

The basic problem with thread descriptors results from the fact that while we intuitively think about thread in terms how thick the thread is, the official classification numbers either state the weight of a fixed length of thread (Ne or Number English), or the length of a fixed weight of thread (Nm or Number Metric).

The tex number is the somewhat official system, and it's also based on the weight of a fixed length of thread.

The Nm numbers usually include some indication of how many individual strands make up a thread. The "30/3" in our example means that the thread is made up of 3 individual fiber strands, and each strand is 30 Nm. So the total thread is really 30/3 = 10 Nm. It may feel like we should multiply the numbers (three strands of 30), but since it's a length measure, the resulting length of fixed weight of triple-spun thread is one third as long, not three times as long. That's also why 30/3 (30/3=10) is really of the same Nm length class as 20/2 (20/2=10).  

To further complicate things, the material of the thread impacts how thick it is, even with the same classification numbers. Most folks here use Nylon or Polyester, which I would put in the synthetic category. Corespun means the fiber strands that make up a thread are spun around a solid center filament core.

Just like it's nearly impossible to convert a car's gas usage numbers from mpg (Miles Per Gallon) to l/100km (liters per 100 kilometer) in your head, the thread conversion can be tricky.

I just now stumbled across a website of Ruoss-Kistler, a Swiss thread manufacturer that goes into the science of thread making in great detail. Un/fortunately it's in German. 

Among other great info, they have this conversion table with formulas:

 So our example of 30/3 thread should convert to tex as follows:

tex= 1000/(30/3)Nm = 1000/10Nm = 100 tex (slightly heavier than the Tex 92 thread you can actually buy here in the U.S.)

The heavier duty Adler 267-74 with the "10/3" spec calculates like this:

tex= 1000/(10/3) = 1000/3.33Nm= 300 tex (slightly heavier than the Tex 270 thread you can actually buy.)

In the real world, a well adjusted Adler 267-373 really does happily sew Tex 138 Nylon thread all day long, and perhaps even Tex 207 thread with careful adjustments and operation. 

There you have it - way more info than you asked for. But a least the whole European thread size thing is clearer in my mind now. 

And none of the above really tells us how thick the thread is, which is what we really want to know. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Uwe

[DonInReno]

Although not for everyone since it's a bit of a gamble as to quality and delivery time, there are some thread sellers shipping from China with rediculously low prices and estimated delivery times in months rather than days that would be an inexpensive way to get a variety of sizes.

I ordered a half dozen spools of seldomly used thread and to my surprise it arrived the next week and is above average quality.  My guess is the thread is warehoused in the US in a Free Trade Zone so it technically hasn't been imported until it leaves the FTZ.

[Wizcrafts]

I will be in my shop soon. I think I still have at least one spool marked as 30/3. I will compare it to some #92 bonded thread and report back here.

[SheltathaLore]

5 hours ago, DonInReno said:

Although not for everyone since it's a bit of a gamble as to quality and delivery time, there are some thread sellers shipping from China with rediculously low prices and estimated delivery times in months rather than days that would be an inexpensive way to get a variety of sizes.

I ordered a half dozen spools of seldomly used thread and to my surprise it arrived the next week and is above average quality.  My guess is the thread is warehoused in the US in a Free Trade Zone so it technically hasn't been imported until it leaves the FTZ.

You can't tease us with that and then not tell us the name of the seller!

[Wizcrafts]

I finally found a spool of Coats Koban 30 weight polycore thread that has three soft plies. It is about the diameter of #135/138 bonded thread. But, it has nowhere near the strength of nylon thread.

[DrmCa]

Tex27 is regular textile thread which is used all around for pajamas, shirts, dress pants and suits, nylon jackets etc. I do not have any smaller threads than this and do not remember ever coming across those.

Tex40 is heavier weight textile thread, used for some denims, cargo pants, uniforms etc.

Tex70-90 are often used for jeans and other denim items, work pants and jackets. I make and hem jeans with this all the time.

Tex110 is super-heavy thread used for safety belts/harnesses, tarps, and for accents on designer clothes. This is the largest textile thread I ever came across.

[Mhicks]

Thank you for all of the info, I do believe I finally have the thread sizes figured out for the most part now and defiantly know what to use for my machines going forward.

I to would be interested in the Chinese sellers for when I might need a couple of different colors.

[brmax]

It’s good to hear your ready for some threads. With using the polyester and nylon thread I find no desire to worry about the cost of a bobbin full of thread. It’s really not worth looking elsewhere. Rather in my opinion smartly use the names locally mentioned here on the site frequently. Theres a satisfaction I get knowing the company selling these threads for my projects and products is just my kind of secure. 

The only tips I can pass on at this stage is get the 1lb spools in your whites and blacks. If you decide on a consistant other color, this is also where big spools will be a no brainer.  Good luck and enjoy fun

 

Good day

Floyd

[DrmCa]

Although I had some bad blood from dealing with Thread Exchange, they are still a decent source of thread and much closer than Chinese. I did not like how they handled my complaint re completely wrong color shipped, but otherwise they have a good selection. Kind of pricey, yes, but they are within reach. I do not use them anymore as I found another source within a driving distance who do not ship their products and are a walk in/cash only.

[JLSleather]

Wherever you get your thread, know that even though the size on it is the same, thread from different manufacturers may not match.  I say that because I had to find it out, nobody SAID that... you can get "277" thread from one supplier that is NOT the same size as "277" from another supplier.  So perhaps it's a good idea to PICK ONE and stick with that supplier much as possible.

Having said that, I like the stuff I get from Bob 'n' friends at Toledo Ind.  207, 277, 346, glides though the machine and the leather like it was LUBED

 

[DonInReno]

On April 26, 2018 at 11:40 AM, SheltathaLore said:

You can't tease us with that and then not tell us the name of the seller!

Lol - I looked up the seller and they are no longer as cheap as they were 6 months ago.  I won't even mention the name because their thread today may be from a complete different manufacturer.  Looking through Amazon and Craig's list there are still some deals out there - $12/lb delivered bonded nylon can be had, but pick carefully!  Some great deals on American thread, but the born-on-dates are getting up there.  

My biggest disappointment is with Amazon and how their listings are so much pay-for-play that the best deals never show up on searches.  It's like they strip keywords from sellers they don't like (aren't paying extra for placement) and even if you know a product is in there it can take some creative searches to find it.  

eBay has some sellers that once in a while sell a limited quantity of thread at a very low price to keep their name toward the top of the list on low price searches - it's more difficult to find these opportunities since some asshats list one or two yard samples in the same space as 1/4 lb spools - total bait and switch if you ask me!

Searching closed transactions on eBay shows that some regular sources are selling significantly below the normal price - it never hurts to ask for a price break apparently!

Finally I can't help but be intrigued by the random bags of partial spools in random sizes and colors at The Thread Exchange for cheap.