Help choosing my first industrial machine

[MStone]

Hello!

I desperately need a leather sewing machine and I've done a lot of research and simply cannot decide what's best. I mostly make handbags with leather and heavy canvas, and I've been doing a combination of sewing what I can on my Janome HD 3000 (great for apparel sewing but can only handle about 1/4" of leather at most) and then hand sewing like crazy. I'm fairly convinced that a cylinder bed would be best for my needs. I've read great things about the Cobra Class 4 and the Cowboy 4500, but I worry that they won't sew well with lighter weight applications. For instance, I read that the Cobra Class 4 uses thread sizes #138 - #415, but I often need to sew with thread as small as #69 with a 18/110 needle. So then I looked at the Cowboy 3200 and the Cobra Class 3 and Class 26. They seem more reasonable in terms of sewing lighter weight leathers but the fact that they all have only about a 10" arm seems like a ridiculously small amount of clearance. I was tempted to buy a Singer Cobbler Patcher 29 found near me on craigslist, but I do occasionally need to sew through 3/8" or even 1/2" and it apparently can't handle that on a regular basis.

I'm also having trouble finding dealers on the east coast. I live in Maine, so if someone could direct me toward a good dealer in the Northeast, I would really appreciate it. 

Thanks so much!

Michaela

[dikman]

Hi Michaela and welcome to the forum. Others with far greater knowledge than me will chime in, but based on what you've written the 3200 sounds like a good bet. You're right in that while the Cobra Class 4/Cowboy 3500 will certainly handle the heavy stuff you will probably have trouble using them on lighter material. Some on here can do it, but I believe it needs a bit of fiddling around to do so.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, MStone said:

I'm also having trouble finding dealers on the east coast. I live in Maine, so if someone could direct me toward a good dealer in the Northeast, I would really appreciate it. 

Thanks so much!

Michaela

Try contacting Keystone Sewing in PA. They have been in business since Noah's Ark made landfall. The owner, Gregg, is a frequent contributor here.

If you are interested in learning more about Cowboy sewing machines, check out this website. They are located in Toledo Ohio and are one of our premier advertisers.

Cobra is a long time member here as is Techsew. Both have ad banners on top of our pages.

[Wizcrafts]

Oops, I forgot to include a good starter machine type. Go for a compound feed walking foot machine to start. It can be an upholstery class machine, like a Consew 206RB-5, or a Juki 1541, or even an old Singer 111w155 without reverse. All of these walking foot machines will sew with #69 through #138 bonded thread. The stock needles are 1.75 inches long and don't flex too much unless they are deflected by misaligned layers.

[AdamPCain]

@MStone I was in the same situation I sew about the same stuff you do. I also live on the east coast. I ended up buying a Juki 1541s from Keystone. Gregg literally spent 2hrs helping learn how to use it I couldn't be happier. Before I bought my machine I talked to just about all of the banner advertising dealers. I can say they all were great with helping me choose the right machine.

[RockyAussie]

without seeing your bag models or what sort of weight bags that you make and want to make it is hard to say what machine or machines would be best. A cylinder may be best and whether it has are a short or long arm will rarely matter. If you are wanting to go thicker than 1/4" but still do lighter work I can see a lot of merit in the CB341for handbag use. It can take a large M bobbin and has the advantage of having a small end that when doing tight gussets etc will come in very handy. The price as well looks good to me be that it has not got a walking foot,  but I have found that walking feet sometimes restrict sewing when you want to get around tight ends on gussets. To explain a little better , walking feet keep pressure down all through the sewing operation and being able to release the foot pressure with the needle still in helps the leather relax and stop from twisting up and sometimes forcing the 2 parts to separate. Hope that makes some sense to you. Here is a link on that machine-http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb341/

If you would care to check my website you will see many bags I make and most of these are done on a smaller cylinder than this one but still not with a walking foot.

 

[RockyAussie]

Here see a couple of pictures that no way could I use the bigger 441 clone  Cowboy machine I have could do.

[SheltathaLore]

Gregg at Keystone is great - I highly recommend him.  Other people on the forum have also had great experiences with the other vendors, so really, you can't go wrong with any of them.

[JLSleather]

Really two words in sewing leather.  Call Bob.

Beyond that, some simple statements for FYI:

I have one of those piece of cobra 4 things, and I wouldn't care to compel it to sew with thread smaller than 138 (I don't even sew with that on it, but it probably would do it).

Sometimes seems like more is better, maybe more so when you're new.   Turns out, it's heavier than I need - I have NEVER sewn 3/4" , nor do I anticipate that I ever will.

I have owned (and should have kept) a Consew 206-RB5 (like Wiz mentioned above).  Very reliable machine, no issues.  Sewed #46 thread up to #207 thread well -- just keep in mind that 207 is THE top end.  Confim with Bob, but I think the Cowboy 227R is the cylinder version of the same machine.

Not too many doing leather next door to me, or I would have swapped my Cobra 4 for the Cowboy 3200 (let the new guy save about $1,000).  Trade the lift capacity for the (possibly) better range of thread size.  Needles and attachments are same for both machines, so that's not an issue.  I make holsters, belts, sheaths, and some lighter 'stuff' and can't remember when I sewed anything thicker than 3/8".

Edited May 2, 2018 by JLSleather

[MStone]

Thanks everyone for the input! I really appreciate you all taking the time to help a newbie out.

 

[Double Daddy]

What ever'body (and especially JLS) said. I started my machine journey with a CB3200 from Toledo...doing holsters, belts and other similar thickness gear with the mindset that that would be what I always wanted to do. Now that my hobby has blossomed into a jobby/side business, here comes "lighter" items like wallets, small bags and other accessories (by request) that I have tired of tinking with my machine's settings all the time (tension, thread, etc) to change between product runs. Now I'm shopping for a lighter duty "little brother" for the CB3200 to handle the thin stuff and leave it set for the heavier gear. Think out what you intend to do...shop with that in mind, if you can.

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Double Daddy said:

What ever'body (and especially JLS) said. I started my machine journey with a CB3200 from Toledo...doing holsters, belts and other similar thickness gear with the mindset that that would be what I always wanted to do. Now that my hobby has blossomed into a jobby/side business, here comes "lighter" items like wallets, small bags and other accessories (by request) that I have tired of tinking with my machine's settings all the time (tension, thread, etc) to change between product runs. Now I'm shopping for a lighter duty "little brother" for the CB3200 to handle the thin stuff and leave it set for the heavier gear. Think out what you intend to do...shop with that in mind, if you can.

Cowboy makes a smaller version cylinder arm machine, with compound feed walking feet, named the CB227-R. It fills the gap between light and heavy duty machines. The specs are in the right sidebar on the page.

[brmax]

Any of the machine companies most likely will send their product by truck freight. In total this would be the cheapest I’m sure. 

Figure that amount, it’s not much of a negotiable cost. Although the cost can be moved about within the dealer cost and profit. 

Probably need a project list to have a more specific answer here. As this question can lead several to suggest a thread size. So with strictly 69-138 the standard machines are great, with standard adjustments. 

Now finding a longer cylinder arm non- shuttle machine. Well this is a real stretch I believe, best of luck though. 

 

Good day

Floyd

[Double Daddy]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

Cowboy makes a smaller version cylinder arm machine, with compound feed walking feet, named the CB227-R. It fills the gap between light and heavy duty machines. The specs are in the right sidebar on the page.

Thanks, Wiz! The 227 is actually on the short-list...contending against the Consew P1206RB...still scraping together some more coin in the equipment budget and still figuring out exactly where things are going on that end...then another phone call to Mr. Kovar. The 227 does appear a bit more versatile, ergonomics-wise, if'n I needed to sew something awkward...such is the advantage of cylinder arms, I reckon.  Thanks, as always, for your knowledge!

[MG513]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:18 AM, RockyAussie said:

without seeing your bag models or what sort of weight bags that you make and want to make it is hard to say what machine or machines would be best. A cylinder may be best and whether it has are a short or long arm will rarely matter. If you are wanting to go thicker than 1/4" but still do lighter work I can see a lot of merit in the CB341for handbag use. It can take a large M bobbin and has the advantage of having a small end that when doing tight gussets etc will come in very handy. The price as well looks good to me be that it has not got a walking foot,  but I have found that walking feet sometimes restrict sewing when you want to get around tight ends on gussets. To explain a little better , walking feet keep pressure down all through the sewing operation and being able to release the foot pressure with the needle still in helps the leather relax and stop from twisting up and sometimes forcing the 2 parts to separate. Hope that makes some sense to you. Here is a link on that machine-http://www.solar-leather.com/cowboy-cb341/

If you would care to check my website you will see many bags I make and most of these are done on a smaller cylinder than this one but still not with a walking foot.

 

Hey, first I want to thank you for suggesting the Cowboy, as this had yet to come up in my search. I assume this is a Juki 341 clone, correct? Can a binder also be attached to this machine?

You mentioned that you used a different machine though, can you say which one? So far I really like the 341 but if you can get results like what youve shown Id like to research that type of machine as well. I am selling my Consew 206rb to get a cylinder and Im trying to narrow down the results. Thanks

[RockyAussie]

18 hours ago, MG513 said:

I assume this is a Juki 341 clone, correct?

I believe so.

 

18 hours ago, MG513 said:

Can a binder also be attached to this machine?

I don't think that will be any problem ...You can see one in this video on a Juki but not in use unfortunately -

This video is also worth a look -

 

18 hours ago, MG513 said:

You mentioned that you used a different machine though, can you say which one?

They are nearly impossible to find but what I use A LOT is a Pfaff 331-33/1B  L. This is a needle and dog feed setup and means I don't have the problem with the back walking foot holding the bag gussets further out amongst other advantages. I have seen another brand similar machine recently but cant seem to find it at the moment. If I do I will get back and let you know.

[MG513]

On 10/7/2018 at 6:10 AM, RockyAussie said:

I believe so.

 

I don't think that will be any problem ...You can see one in this video on a Juki but not in use unfortunately -

This video is also worth a look -

 

They are nearly impossible to find but what I use A LOT is a Pfaff 331-33/1B  L. This is a needle and dog feed setup and means I don't have the problem with the back walking foot holding the bag gussets further out amongst other advantages. I have seen another brand similar machine recently but cant seem to find it at the moment. If I do I will get back and let you know.

Thanks so much for the reply. Yea I’ve never even heard of that model Pfaff until now lol. Would u say that the 335 is the closest machine to this out right now, despite it being a compound feed I believe? 

I’m trying to decide whether to go with the 341 or possibly a 335. I like the additional thread options and punching power provided by the 341, especially as it uses singer 111 parts and should cover whatever I may decide to make in the future, but I’m wondering if at some point the smaller diameter cylinder may come in handy. Decisions decisions!

[MG513]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:18 AM, RockyAussie said:

The price as well looks good to me be that it has not got a walking foot, 

Also just for further clarification, are u saying the 341 is not in fact a walking foot machine??

[RockyAussie]

7 hours ago, MG513 said:

Would u say that the 335 is the closest machine to this out right now, despite it being a compound feed I believe? 

Yes that is correct.

 

7 hours ago, MG513 said:

Also just for further clarification, are u saying the 341 is not in fact a walking foot machine??

No it is a walking foot but does come with extra punching power/thread thickness etc. I would have them both if I could but as to which is more suitable would depend on the type of products that you mostly make and what sort of weight/thickness those are. I have been trying to find a similar machine without walking foot and this Consew model 223R may be of interest-

And another link - http://www.consew.com/View/Consew-Model-223R-2

They do look a little large at 65mm dia on the end but still a lot smaller than many others as well.Keep in mind that the foot can be a lot narrower for fine jobs as well.The one in the picture of mine above is one that I made to suit much of my work finer work jobs.The dog foot was smoothed as well.

[MG513]

23 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

Yes that is correct.

 

No it is a walking foot but does come with extra punching power/thread thickness etc. I would have them both if I could but as to which is more suitable would depend on the type of products that you mostly make and what sort of weight/thickness those are. I have been trying to find a similar machine without walking foot and this Consew model 223R may be of interest-

And another link - http://www.consew.com/View/Consew-Model-223R-2

They do look a little large at 65mm dia on the end but still a lot smaller than many others as well.Keep in mind that the foot can be a lot narrower for fine jobs as well.The one in the picture of mine above is one that I made to suit much of my work finer work jobs.The dog foot was smoothed as well.

Thanks a lot for your responses. The video was quite helpful, although I watch this particular channels videos a lot its only now that im noticing the differences between a walking foot and a needle feed. It now makes more sense what your were saying about being able to relieve a little pressure when going around a tight corner. i would assume the only way to geth around that on a walking foot cylinder would be to think of ways how to avoid those tight spaces in your initial design.

 

Lots to think about!

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, MG513 said:

i would assume the only way to geth around that on a walking foot cylinder would be to think of ways how to avoid those tight spaces in your initial design.

That is correct and the first thing I do in a design is check the measurements of the possible and work my design  to that. I have a 335 as well and the 331 allows me a lot wider range of possibles as to how I want the finished product to look. Some here may argue and I hope they do as I would love to learn something new always.

[MG513]

On 10/8/2018 at 8:43 PM, RockyAussie said:

That is correct and the first thing I do in a design is check the measurements of the possible and work my design  to that. I have a 335 as well and the 331 allows me a lot wider range of possibles as to how I want the finished product to look. Some here may argue and I hope they do as I would love to learn something new always.

Thanks a lot. I’ve been thinking a lot the past few days and honestly I’m not sure if I’m more clear or confused on which way to go lol. I thought for sure the 341 would be best, but I do know that some tight radius may be in my future and that cylinder may be a bit too big for it. So now I’m torn between the 341, the 335, and just yesterday I saw someone using a Juki 246. Last but not least the Adler 669. This is the last option simply because it’s the most expensive and likely will only happen in my dreams lol. However this machine allows you to disengage the dogs when you need to use it for binding and that seems like a feature that’s well worth the cost. 

Stitch quality is important to me, and it seems that the Pfaff/Adler’s get rave reviews for top and bottom stitching. But I also want to be able to sew with 138 thread top an bottom for belts and straps, it seems the smaller 335 types top out at 92. I know 1 machine does not do everything, but I definitely think it’s possible to get close. There’s just too/so many options!

To add insult to injury I’m several hours away from any industrial shops, so that makes it hard to try before you buy. I bought my first 2 machines site unseen, and although I love them now, I vowed that if I bought another one id try it out first. I’d just have to plan out vacation time to do so. I would definitely like to try both feeding mechanisms and see what makes more sense for the bags/purses I’d like to make. Lol first world problems. Anyways, I appreciate all your tips! The research continues!

 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, MG513 said:

SNIP

To add insult to injury I’m several hours away from any industrial shops, so that makes it hard to try before you buy. I bought my first 2 machines site unseen, and although I love them now, I vowed that if I bought another one id try it out first. I’d just have to plan out vacation time to do so. I would definitely like to try both feeding mechanisms and see what makes more sense for the bags/purses I’d like to make. Lol first world problems. Anyways, I appreciate all your tips! The research continues!

 

In this case, aside from asking for opinions and suggestions here, why not package up some samples of your work in flat rate boxes and ask industrial sewing machine dealers if they will have time to sew off your samples on this or that machine (with this or that thread)? Mail them out and check the sewn results.

[MG513]

23 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

In this case, aside from asking for opinions and suggestions here, why not package up some samples of your work in flat rate boxes and ask industrial sewing machine dealers if they will have time to sew off your samples on this or that machine (with this or that thread)? Mail them out and check the sewn results.

Hey Wiz! Of course sending out samples would be a no brainer considering I have very limited options where I am to visit in person. But at the same time, most places will have pros that are very familiar with these machines and they will easily be able to dial it in for a handful of samples. Not to insult my own intelligence, but sometimes “dialing” it in can be tricky. So although the samples would absolutely help show me what a machine is capable of, I also want to have the confidence that I can receive the same results at home. Plus I’ve never even sat down at a cylinder machine. I wonder what the difference would be sitting at 1 with a 10.5 inch arm versus a 13, etc... I’m thinking seriously of setting aside time to visit a place, but if that’s not possible the samples will certainly have to do. Thx for all the suggestions! 

Edited October 17, 2018 by MG513