CB3200 needle thread fraying

[koreric75]

So, was going to practice with the 3200 and some scrap to try out a technique @JLSleather had mentioned keeping the walking foot impressions off your work...

, i didn't even get a few practice runs in, started one and was really going slow and paying attention to where things were lining up and noticed my thread fraying after each stitch was made when the needle was pulling back up from the bottom .....just one little length a couple of inches on each stitch.  So i changed the needle, didn't help, changed it again thinking maybe i got a bad one, still didn't help...double checked size #25 Organ needle 794 that came out of the pack that came with the machine.  Changed thread, changed bobbins, no joy...  So then I researched some, especially here via google, re-read the manual, went over the machine and checked for dust, dirt, burrs, and did a thorough cleaning and re-oiling by the manual.  I couldn't find any thing that would cause this.  I did find one little burr on the underside of the presser foot toe, right side middle of where the hole starts up the side on the outside.  It was enough that if thread was pulled across it with light tension it would fray and break.    I don't think this is in the thread path during stitching but smoothed it off jic and still same problem.  I am thinking my next step should be to remove the shuttle race and bobbin case assembly to check for anything i couldn't see or reach with the small brush but not sure whether this will affect anything?  The instructions in the manual make it sound easy, but this is under the "how to adjust feed dog height" part and that's not what i'm trying to do.  I don't want to do anything that will cause @SolarLeatherMachines to say..."didn't i tell you not to do this"...lol.    The last thing Alexander said to me was, it's all setup with #277 thread, #25 needle to sew belts, holsters, harnesses etc (as we discussed), just sew with it and don't dick with it...(not verbatim, but marines always have a way of saying things that make the bottom line stick in your brain...lol) I did a good spray of aerosol gun oil last night to let it sit and am going to wipe it down and see if anything comes of it, but wanted to post up here for advice/ideas if it doesn't.  I'll get a couple pics and a video this morning of the affected area as well and post back.  I mean, it's not enough fraying to break thread, and you can't see it when something is stitched.  I hadn't noticed it before last night, but it is worse on the white thread than black, stitch length didn't seem to change it, forward or reverse didn't seem to matter either.  Tension loose as a goose or tightened to where the know started getting close to the top didn't change it as well.  First time i've tried stitching a line and cutting along the tops of the holes on the stitch line to see exactly where the knot lands so I have learned a couple things I'm tagging(not all inclusive, as a ton of folks have shared info here that has proven valuable) a few of y'all that have provided advice on others, and saved me a headache or helped me better understand how the machine makes the stitch as well, I feel like it's when the thread comes up the back side of the bobbin case and back up through the feed is where this is happening but i can't for the life of me "see" it when it's happening.  If I can't figure it out today, i'll give solar-leather a call in the morning.

@CowboyBob, @Uwe, @Wizcrafts

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I'm going to bet it's your Organ needles.  I've never had any that were any good.  Schmetz and Gros Beckert are better.  I had the same trouble with my 4500, changed from the Organ needles that it came with, instant improvement.

[CowboyBob]

Are you sure the long groove of the needle is one the leftside? What JSL technique were you doing? 

[JLSleather]

Shims, Bob. Shims.

 

[koreric75]

46 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

Are you sure the long groove of the needle is one the leftside? What JSL technique were you doing? 

Yessir, I thought maybe I had put it on cocked at an angle, but it's perpendicular to the direction of feed and on the left side... I'm going to setup the tripod so I can get a pic and vid of it...

Using a piece of straight scrap to pad the walking foot toe to reduce impression marks along the stitch line...

39 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Shims, Bob. Shims.

 

Lol, what he said... I just did a couple lines to test if the cleaning did anything, but still fraying, on a happy note, the shim worked great, just gotta get used to it so I don't wander off with the stitch line. Thanks again.

Edited June 3, 2018 by koreric75
added info

[koreric75]

41 minutes ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I'm going to bet it's your Organ needles.  I've never had any that were any good.  Schmetz and Gros Beckert are better.  I had the same trouble with my 4500, changed from the Organ needles that it came with, instant improvement.

This is possible, I can't say for certain that it is a new problem, I just never noticed it before now...I only have the small pack of needles I got with the machine, I reckon I can order a small pack of another MFG just to be sure... I've only used the machine for a handful of projects, but I've put new needles in for each so I only have a couple of these left. I did try one of the previous needles that was only used to stitch a holster, it was the same out come.  Problem with this is with the needle out of the machine I can't run the thread through it at any angle and get similar results, but I haven't put tension onv the thread doing this either.

[koreric75]

Here is the link to the video on my youtube, and pics below...

https://youtu.be/mg4-mOMZYg4

 

[JLSleather]

Oh, yea -- definitely looks like it's fraying  at the "loop"

[Ferg]

Well, I am no expert on stitching/sewing but I have been doing it a long time.

Sorry, there isn't anything wrong with the organ needles, most problems with thread fraying in my experience is WRONG SIZE NEEDLE!

A side note: You have the presser foot pressure too tight. You are making a deep impression with the foot into your leather.

I understand you are using a scrap to sew in the vid. Your adjustments are way off.

 

Ferg

[jimi]

could it be the needle is fraying the thread when it passes through the foot , rubbing against the hole in the foot?? looks real tight in there.?? just a thought??

[koreric75]

32 minutes ago, Ferg said:

Well, I am no expert on stitching/sewing but I have been doing it a long time.

Sorry, there isn't anything wrong with the organ needles, most problems with thread fraying in my experience is WRONG SIZE NEEDLE!

A side note: You have the presser foot pressure too tight. You are making a deep impression with the foot into your leather.

I understand you are using a scrap to sew in the vid. Your adjustments are way off.

 

Ferg

I'm using a #25 sized needle and #277 thread top & bottom when holding the thread at an angle the needle will glide right down it ( i think it was you that gave me that tip discussing the 78-1 singer I've been trying to get up and running?), I dunno about the presser foot, I backed off the presser foot adjustment as far as i can, it still leaves an impression but slighter, still getting the frayed thread tho.

[JLSleather]

Needle is not too small.  I use a #24 needle with 277 thread up and 207 thread down --- never an issue.  Depending on the thread (not all thread is equal) I have been known to step up to #25 when sewing with 277 top 'n' bottom.

 

[jimi]

so did you try moving the foot slightly to the side??

[koreric75]

1 minute ago, jimi said:

so did you try moving the foot slightly to the side??

I'm not sure i understand the question, are you talking about the presser foot or walking foot?  Not sure how to move either side-to-side...there isn't any free play in either tho

[jimi]

yes the walking foot with the hole. can you move it to the right a bit?

[Ferg]

Your needle size is correct. Yes I gave you that info some time back. Works for me.

Your foot pressure is about where the rod will pop out, spring is strong. My 3200 measures 1 1/16" from the surface of the arm to top edge of adjusting nut. 

Yours is doggone near 1 1/4" actually.

Rough needle "eye", bad spool of thread, ----- Have you tried changing the thread? Even a different color will make a difference sometimes. Your "Hook" could have a rough spot or slight knick on it.

I would check everything the thread is going through from the needle down. You could have a "Burr" inside the foot portion the thread goes through.

Easiest way to check for a burr is to take the center foot off so you can see inside of the hole. The foot you have on the machine can be rotated slightly to make sure your needle isn't pressing the thread too tightly against the side of the hole.

Ferg

Edited June 3, 2018 by Ferg

[koreric75]

1 minute ago, jimi said:

yes the walking foot with the hole. can you move it to the right a bit?

I don't know, it's solid mounted, the hole is in the presser foot, it's solid mounted..don't see any adjustment to move it...I'll research some more, been watching cowboy machine videos most of the morning, rewatching others...haven't found an adjustment for that, did just watch one for adjusting the travel of the walking foot/presser foot and height ratio...

[jimi]

i take it your foot is on a round bar ?? might be wrong?? if so loosen the screw or screws to slightly move the foot to the right?

[koreric75]

3 minutes ago, Ferg said:

Your needle size is correct. Yes I gave you that info some time back. Works for me.

Your foot pressure is about where the rod will pop out, spring is strong. My 3200 measures 1 1/16" from the surface of the arm to top edge of adjusting nut. 

Yours is doggone near 1 1/4" actually.

Rough needle "eye", bad spool of thread, ----- Have you tried changing the thread? Even a different color will make a difference sometimes. Your "Hook" could have a rough spot or slight knick on it.

I would check everything the thread is going through from the needle down.

Ferg

Yessir, swapped from white thread (was more pronounced on white) to black and brown, but all have the same result.  I can't feel any nicks along the shuttle race or hook (where i can feel with out disassembing), used a soft cotton swab and gently ran across the areas that are reachable, no roughness or burrs,  I don't think removing the hook/bobbin case would void the warranty, but with the needle plate off (knew this was a safe one for me...lol) i can see/feel most of the edges...only sharp area is the end of the hook, but didn't have any nicks or burrs that i could see or feel, got out the soldering station magnifier glass too...lol.  There is a point when the loop goes behind the bobbin case that i can't see while it's moving that i am suspicious, it seems to line up with where the frayed thread comes up...it's just the backside of the hook right?  is there anything else in there to rub against?

Just now, jimi said:

i take it your foot is on a round bar ?? might be wrong?? if so loosen the screw or screws to slightly move the foot to the right?

oh i think i understand, rotate the foot to the right on the bar?  I'll check and see if there is a keyway or notch that would prevent that...brb.

[jimi]

yes sorry rotate.

[Ferg]

Remove the cover, I imagine you have already done that, one which covers the bobbin.

Make sure the power switch is off on the machine, turn the hand wheel toward you, not away from you, and watch the thread as it loops around the bobbin and case.

You should be able to see almost exactly where the "fray" is coming from IF it is in fact happening around the bobbin and or case.

Ferg

[koreric75]

21 minutes ago, jimi said:

yes sorry rotate.

No worries, i  does rotate on a round bar with 2 small allen set screws, i tried rotating a smidge counter clockwise,,still frayed, tried a tiny bit clockwise and  same, i can't go but a hair either way without the needle contacting the inside of the circle or butting up against the walking foot or walking foot bracket.

Edited June 3, 2018 by koreric75
added photos of machine

[koreric75]

5 minutes ago, Ferg said:

Remove the cover, I imagine you have already done that, one which covers the bobbin.

Make sure the power switch is off on the machine, turn the hand wheel toward you, not away from you, and watch the thread as it loops around the bobbin and case.

You should be able to see almost exactly where the "fray" is coming from IF it is in fact happening around the bobbin and or case.

Ferg

Yessir, 

I removed the bobbin cover and rotated by hand last night after swapping threads and needles, before doing a re-oil/clean.  That is what I was doing earlier with better light, but the point where the thread goes from the front of the case and pulls up behind the case I can't see in motion, that is the point the thread is traveling back up the needle with the thread take up lever.  I've went over the back of the bobbin case and any corners that i can see, but the thread is in tact until it goes behind then when it comes back up through the feed dog and foot it's frayed...I've also swapped  type and thickness of leather thinking maybe the stiffer leather was crusty enough to cause it but didn't affect anything.  I went back through the manual and videos and looks like i can remove the hook assembly and bobbin case as if i were swapping out needle plates, this should let me get a good look at the back side...brb...lol

[JLSleather]

You can operate the machine with the end cap off - just keep the fingers out.  Stitch a few holding the thread like usual, then you can watch the end without watching the top.

As for the pressure spring, keep in mind that a new spring will be "stiffer" than one broken in.

[Ferg]

This is a stretch but...... In Fig 12-3, note the feed dog attaching screw (4). Check that with your finger if you have the shuttle removed. Is there a burr on it? The thread passes over that screw head when the stitch is pulled up.

It is a flat head screw and is normally tightened very tight. If you wish to loosen it and retighten, make sure you have a screw driver that correctly fits the slot in the screw. You can ruin the screw if wrong driver used.

I hope you held onto the shuttle mechanism when you removed the screws in the outer ring. They are spring loaded and will push the shuttle out of your hand some times.

Ferg