Is there an attachement for CB4500 for finishing leather edges?

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi,

I cant make it work to burnish leather edges so I am looking for alternative methods to finish leather edges.

I believe I have seen an attachment for the Cowboy 4500 to fold over leather over the edges (and sew it on in the process) as such being an method to finish the product nicely.

Has anybody such device? How does that work? It's supposed to call HT-BF01 Hevy duty leather binder attachment as in here https://hightex-germany.de/cowboy-cb4500-leather-stitching-machine-and-special-sewing-equipment/

Whats does that device exactly?

Is that availlable in the USA as well?

[garypl]

Why not just glue and sew a strip of 1-2 oz leather to make a nice edge?  I do this on the growler caddies I make.

Gary

[Wizcrafts]

I asked Bob Kovar about this edge binder set and he says they are available by special order for $450. Bob owns Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines.

[chrisash]

What about rolled edges, Skive the edge and roll it over, stick it down and sew

[RusticLeatherShop]

I have no skiver nor locally leather glue is availlable.

I hate using glue on leather so I avoid it completely.

Has anyone experience with that leather binder Attachement?

[Matt S]

12 minutes ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

I have no skiver nor locally leather glue is availlable.

I hate using glue on leather so I avoid it completely.

You don't need a skiving machine, people have been skiving for centuries with just a knife.

There's plenty of glues that work on leather that aren't specifically designed for it. Normal contact cement is popular, and even regular white PVA like you might use for wood works well on leather, so long as you apply pressure to the leather until the glue is dry.

I used to hate the delay and so avoided glueing leather for a long time, but honestly it really held me back in the projects I could make.

What leather are you trying to burnish? Generally it's only the vegetable tanned leathers that will burnish. Thin leathers are difficult to burnish by hand. I have had some success burnishing chrome tannages using a high-speed wheel.

[RusticLeatherShop]

I tried burnishing with putting an metal pulley wheel on an 3500 RPM bench grinder. That did not give me any good results. Leather is 4 to 5 oz veg tanned leather from cattle but I switched to pig leather for it being here higher Quality.

Yeah, for 450$ by Toledo machines for an binder which costs at Amazon.com (although for another machine but still...) 10$ to 13$.

According to all I learned about the binder it's Overall just an bent Piece of metal which folds an passing through leather or Cloth in half so it slides underneath and on top of the leather material to sew.

Dunno how that can cost 25% of the entire Cobra Class IV machine Equipment. 450$ for a bent metal seems to me a sort of rip off.

On Amazon one may see if an Standard binding attachment is not Fitting These machines like those sold by sail rite. Obviously one is not able to bind with These 7/8" leather saddles or similar.

[Wizcrafts]

I forgot to mention that the $450 price also includes a synchronized moving mounting bracket and actuator linkage for a CB4500 (etc).

Edited August 27, 2018 by Wizcrafts
Corrected info about what is included with the binder attachment

[RusticLeatherShop]

2 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

I forgot to mention that the $450 price apparently includes special presser feet to match the right angle binder.

The question is is it worthed?

I have seen Videos were it is not working as perfect as it ought to do.

As well on the Hightex Germany site they Show These with ONLY 1 layer of leather. So if you have sewn together 4 layers of 5 Oz leather then I would want to bind those 4 layers with the binder Attachement (totalling 4 + 2 binding edges = 6 layers of 5 Oz leather). Would it do that? I have never seen more than 1 layer bound with These.

If it's only for 1 layer of leather, it's not worthed it.

It must be capable of about 3 inches of material (entrance) so it bends the leather to 1.5" on each side. That way one could sew about 7/8" of leather so still on each side is 1" of binder and on the binding part as well 1" about totalling 3" broad binder.

Important is as well the binding leather material can be about 5 oz thick leather since I dont have an skiver. If it can handle only the thinnest softest leather, then it's not for me since locally such leathers are not availlable (and I dont have a skiver or leather splitter).

Since business in leather area is not going very well over here, the 450$ is not worthed the Investment if it binds only 1 layer of 5 Oz leather and not more. Even with an capacity to bind effectively 7/8" of sewn together leather, it's too expensive.

[Wizcrafts]

19 hours ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

The question is is it worthed?

SNIP

Important is as well the binding leather material can be about 5 oz thick leather since I dont have an skiver. If it can handle only the thinnest softest leather, then it's not for me since locally such leathers are not availlable (and I dont have a skiver or leather splitter).

Since business in leather area is not going very well over here, the 450$ is not worthed the Investment if it binds only 1 layer of 5 Oz leather and not more. Even with an capacity to bind effectively 7/8" of sewn together leather, it's too expensive.

You are going to have to contact a custom attachment shop to have one built to your specifications. Perhaps you could purchase an inexpensive folder to use as a sample to have one made that can do what you want in a metal fabrication shop.

The last custom folder I had made cost me $428 and it was for double folding 1.25 inch bias tape over the edges of thin orange honeycomb vinyl safety vests used by Police and road workers. Before getting a custom binder it was hit and miss. With that binder the results were professional. Professional results can be sold to critical buyers.

If you were to contact an Atlanta Attachment Company with your requirements they could give you a ballpark cost for a custom build. What would it hurt to send an email to Cowboy/Hightex in China asking them for the capacity of their big folder, or if they can modify it for you?

[RusticLeatherShop]

Thanks Wizcrafts,

I am not a fan of buying "chinese made" or any dubious "Special orders".

It must be made by the manufacturer of the sewing machine.

Otherwise if an known brand (Singer, Brother, Juki, etc) make a Fitting one, I will go for that since they are reputable.

I can see that for binding an 7/8" leather one Needs a spring loaded (fits all sizes) binder (the 2 binding arms has to be spring loaded of some sort0 in order to adjust on-the-fly for any leather material thicknesses. Otherwise as far as I can see the triple feed mechanism will pull the binding element through with ease.

So that should not cost a fortune neighter at least could be easily made of thicker gauge stainless steel (spring loaded arms) for an final Price of under 50$ I would say.

I wonder if the binding Attachement is not very popular since it seems nobody is using it. Maybe few people are demanding it since the leather business is not all that economically feasable.

But then again one could bind like this in the photo 1 layer of leather and then sew the bound layers together. How the thread would look onto the leather (maybe a mess) is another question.

[Matt S]

3 hours ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

Thanks Wizcrafts,

I am not a fan of buying "chinese made" or any dubious "Special orders".

It must be made by the manufacturer of the sewing machine.

Otherwise if an known brand (Singer, Brother, Juki, etc) make a Fitting one, I will go for that since they are reputable.

I can see that for binding an 7/8" leather one Needs a spring loaded (fits all sizes) binder (the 2 binding arms has to be spring loaded of some sort0 in order to adjust on-the-fly for any leather material thicknesses. Otherwise as far as I can see the triple feed mechanism will pull the binding element through with ease.

So that should not cost a fortune neighter at least could be easily made of thicker gauge stainless steel (spring loaded arms) for an final Price of under 50$ I would say.

I wonder if the binding Attachement is not very popular since it seems nobody is using it. Maybe few people are demanding it since the leather business is not all that economically feasable.

But then again one could bind like this in the photo 1 layer of leather and then sew the bound layers together. How the thread would look onto the leather (maybe a mess) is another question.

Your sewing machine is Chinese made. Genuine Juki TSC-441 costs several times what you paid. Chinese stuff can be excellent, or it can be rubbish. It is however generally much more affordable than Western-made equipment, which is good for a hobbyist like yourself.

I've not heard of any attachment that can bind 7/8" thick leather and can't think of hardly any application for such a beast. Binders are apparently a bit of a "black art" -- part science, part experience, part voodoo. There's a surprising amount of factors that go into designing and manufacturing a seemingly simple item like a binder so a custom one is big bucks and the more specialist your application the more expensive it's going to be. As an example a good brand standard shell-binder costs more than $50.

Binding attachments for 441 type machines aren't common or popular, I expect, because 441 machines are most commonly used by hobbyists and very small manufacturers who rarely do any binding. They are very flexible machines that can be adjusted to do a lot of different jobs but that's not how factories work. Production facilities of any appreciable size have a range of different machine types, each setup or modified to do one job, or a small range of jobs, very well and very fast.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

16 hours ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

So that should not cost a fortune neighter at least could be easily made of thicker gauge stainless steel (spring loaded arms) for an final Price of under 50$ I would say.

*breathe* 

Edited August 27, 2018 by SolarLeatherMachines

[CowboyBob]

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, RusticLeatherShop said:

I tried burnishing with putting an metal pulley wheel on an 3500 RPM bench grinder. That did not give me any good results. Leather is 4 to 5 oz veg tanned leather from cattle but I switched to pig leather for it being here higher Quality.

Yeah, for 450$ by Toledo machines for an binder which costs at Amazon.com (although for another machine but still...) 10$ to 13$.

According to all I learned about the binder it's Overall just an bent Piece of metal which folds an passing through leather or Cloth in half so it slides underneath and on top of the leather material to sew.

Dunno how that can cost 25% of the entire Cobra Class IV machine Equipment. 450$ for a bent metal seems to me a sort of rip off.

On Amazon one may see if an Standard binding attachment is not Fitting These machines like those sold by sail rite. Obviously one is not able to bind with These 7/8" leather saddles or similar.

Maybe you should learn what we are talking about before you accuse people of "ripping off"

Here's the binder for $450.00 does it look like there's a lot more parts to it?? Of course that's why it costs more !! Let me know Amazons price on this?

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by CowboyBob

[Wizcrafts]

Bob, can you inquire as to what thickness the binder can handle in both the binding material and the edge to be covered? It looks like the "tape" is double folded. If true it would greatly limit the binding material to either very thin leather or cloth bias tape. I am envisioning approximately  a 1 to 1.5 ounce thickness limit for a double folded leather tape. Or, maybe it can double fold heavy grade upholstery vinyl, like Naugahyde.

[RusticLeatherShop]

14 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Bob, can you inquire as to what thickness the binder can handle in both the binding material and the edge to be covered? It looks like the "tape" is double folded. If true it would greatly limit the binding material to either very thin leather or cloth bias tape. I am envisioning approximately  a 1 to 1.5 ounce thickness limit for a double folded leather tape. Or, maybe it can double fold heavy grade upholstery vinyl, like Naugahyde.

Hi,

Since I have no leather splitter, the binder must handle about 5 oz thick leather as binding material.

I guess the 450$ binder is made in the USA from solid stainless steel, otherwise it has an arm, plate and another arm as well as an presser included. So ys it's more complex than the Amazon type binders. But if they would offer them on Amazon.com I believe the Price could drop easily to 250$.

Besides that who knows how reliable they work. In the Video that flagship of binder is binding only thin leather (1 layer) and with Ultra thin leather as binding material. If it does only up to that, it's way overpriced. But yes one could bind arount the Piece and THEN afterwards sewing it together (as in my Picture). But that may have an awefull appearance since the Piece is double sewn with heavy thread.

[CowboyBob]

35 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Bob, can you inquire as to what thickness the binder can handle in both the binding material and the edge to be covered? It looks like the "tape" is double folded. If true it would greatly limit the binding material to either very thin leather or cloth bias tape. I am envisioning approximately  a 1 to 1.5 ounce thickness limit for a double folded leather tape. Or, maybe it can double fold heavy grade upholstery vinyl, like Naugahyde.

It has an opening of 1/4" & will take up to 6 oz of binding material,25mm tape,but the thicker the binding the thinner the binding piece would need to be.

Edited August 27, 2018 by CowboyBob

[brmax]

I’m quite sure the folder in the video is not made here in the US, although as mentioned you can get custom folders/binders made here.

I have heard of shops in both of these states Tennessee;TAC and Georgia;Atlanta attachment.  These are two Professional outfits doing this and much more complex manufacturing involved in sewing stuff. 

Im sure there are other custom shops around the world also, I have just heard of these areas here in the States. As always we many times think a job or task is a certain worth or a certain amount of time to do.

This is always a very interesting topic I think, as I’m always curious of the experience of one so involved from these projected assessments. 

Time saving is always something to discuss in production. 

 

Good day

Floyd

[dikman]

Rustic, could you post a link to this $50 binder? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about. Your suggestion that a heavy binder could be made for $50 made me laugh. Even if Amazon offered the Cowboy  binder for sale I doubt it would be much, if any, cheaper. For that to happen it has to be mass produced, but the market simply isn't there as it's too specialised a piece of gear.

[kgg]

Even though I do not own a Cowboy, if you really needed that attachment for your projects, you would pay twice the price for quality. I can definitely see where the cost of a proper binder for that machine is. For one there is a very limited number of people that would ever need one, design engineering, manufacturing, stocking and shipping. Hell I paid $80 for my 1 3/4" swing away plain tape binder and another $80 for 2 1/2" double fold binder for a Juki. Could have got something "similar" off ebay for about $15 each would have it worked, probably.  Same quality or longevity, probably not.

Most times you get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

As far as I know and understand, Cowboy primarily sells through a network of distributors unless there is nobody representing them in a particular country or hemisphere. It is unlikely that their binder will ever be on Amazon as that would be outside the dealer network.

6 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

It has an opening of 1/4" & will take up to 6 oz of binding material,25mm tape,but the thicker the binding the thinner the binding piece would need to be.

25mm wide bias tape, as in 1 inch??? If that is a double fold (finished edge) binder it will be useless on 1/4 inch thick edges. The tape would need to be at least 1.25" wide to have enough left to sew after folding under the edges. At 5 or 6 ounces, the strips would need to be about 1.5 inches before double folding. I think they may have quoted the tape width for a single fold attachment.

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

As far as I know and understand, Cowboy primarily sells through a network of distributors unless there is nobody representing them in a particular country or hemisphere. It is unlikely that their binder will ever be on Amazon as that would be outside the dealer network.

25mm wide bias tape, as in 1 inch??? If that is a double fold (finished edge) binder it will be useless on 1/4 inch thick edges. The tape would need to be at least 1.25" wide to have enough left to sew after folding under the edges. At 5 or 6 ounces, the strips would need to be about 1.5 inches before double folding. I think they may have quoted the tape width for a single fold attachment.

Yeah I guess that is about what it is.

An Cowboy dealer told me that as a binder

>>it can use 1 - 2 oz binding materials. 5 oz binding materials it cant fold. But it can bind These materials (1 - 2 oz) to "heavy materials" <<

Basically you can bind an 5 oz Piece of leather with an 1 - 2 oz Piece of binding material.

I guess the more "doubfull" the Client stays, the more eager he gets to find out and orders the binder to his surprise afterwards that it binds at most normal leather for handbags and such 1 layer leathers.

As well that what Cowboybob said lets me Standing a bit in the rain with even more questions. 1/4" intake or Output? I understand that if I use 5 oz leather as binding material, I can bind with that only another 5 oz leather or the like. No such Thing in that case to bind 2 layers of sewn together 5 oz leather layers.

[RusticLeatherShop]

Meanwhile I have found some sort of middle of the road solution.

I rubb in the sewn together 5 oz edges (in this case 4 layers of 5 oz leather) with Vaseline and then sand it with an bench grinder. That smoothenes and evens out all layers and burnishes it partially.

Without water or Vaseline the leather gets dark quickly as it coals easy (gets to hot from the sand Stone).

[RusticLeatherShop]

another Close up foto of the "burnish" with an bench grinder using an sanding Stone (used for sharpening knifes as well). This is an pocket Holster for an 380 acp pistol.

[RusticLeatherShop]

That "burnish" Experiment with the bench grinder may be a cheap alternative of the expensive binder attachment. Indeed the "burnish" Looks a Little like pressed plywood. It gives a bit better finish than leaving the edges raw.

Tell me guys what you think about the "burnish".