shopping for insurance for my saddle making business

[Johanna]

"Oh, and by the way, are you aware that throwing a rope around a big, dumb animal like a cow, while riding another big dumb animal like a horse, is inherently dangerous?"

Johanna

[Art]

No more so than jumping off a big dumb animal who is trying to catch a slightly smaller dumb animal with horns who has just been hit in the butt with a cattle prod, grabbing said smaller animal by the head and horns, planting your heels in the ground and flipping you and the aforementioned animal on your backs, all in 2-3 seconds. And we're worried about leather breaking? Good thing the cows and the boys are both young.

Art

"Oh, and by the way, are you aware that throwing a rope around a big, dumb animal like a cow, while riding another big dumb animal like a horse, is inherently dangerous?"

[Go2Tex]

.......smaller dumb animal with horns who has just been hit in the butt with a cattle prod, grabbing said smaller animal by the head and horns, planting your heels in the ground and flipping you and the aforementioned animal on your backs, all in 2-3 seconds. .......

UH-oh... I hope this topic doesn't get hyjacked by the animal rights activists... probably end up arguing the merits of horse slaughter..... a topic only slightly less volatile than saddle fit.

[Art]

Hi Tex,

We have a few (underestimate) of them around here, but they even think leather is evil so there is no talking to them about people rights. There is no way to reason with that stuff, you just have to tell them we disagree and to get out of my face.

Art

UH-oh... I hope this topic doesn't get hyjacked by the animal rights activists... probably end up arguing the merits of horse slaughter..... a topic only slightly less volatile than saddle fit.

[K-Man]

Well no, they said my shop, once I get it built, would not be covered because it is a business. They didn't suggest a rider, so I rather suspect they'll want to do the whole thing on a commercial policy.

....

Could it be that most saddlemakers just don't bother with it?

I cannot speak for any saddlemakers, but I know there are quite a few of the small holster shops that don't bother with it.

I agree that you would expect common sense to be considered, i.e., you get on a horse, there's the potential to get hurt in some fashion. But you would have thought the same thing about the coffee being hot that you get from a restaurant....

With the vast number of frivilous lawsuits in the world today, why would someone go without it? In my opinion, to not have the coverage is too great of a risk. In most instances, one substantial award by a jury in a product liability case would wipe out most businesses.

[barra]

First of all great topic Go2tex. I hate to play devils advocate but i thought I might add a few possible scenarios. We live in a litigious society and my side of the pond is not far behind the US in ridiculous, frivolous lawsuits. I am sure a certain money grabbing profession fuels the idea into some equally money grabbing plaintif to go after these huge sums of money. Ridiculous (to the average person) lawsuits like the hot coffee one or the recent dry cleaning suit because some hard working mum and dad business made the fatal mistake of using the age old slogan of SATISFACTION GUARANTEED are becoming common place. Oh and who can forget the Darwin award candidate who put his Winnebago into cruise control and left to make coffee or something, then sued because no warning was added saying leaving a moving vehicle is unsafe.

We make horse tack that is then put onto a living breathing animal with a mind and a will of it's own. The most bomb proof horse on the planet can not be guaranteed not to ever go off the rails. Now while most of us fully accept the inherant risks associated with our equine pursuits and apply what most of us assume is common sense, common sense is relative. How do we judge that the person using our tack has the same level of common sense as us.

Where have any of us gained our knowledge of saddle/tack making. More than likely it was via an old well respected saddle maker and in my case a 3rd generation saddler. Your mentor gained their experience from tried and true methods in saddlemaking. Used what are generally regarded as the best materials available to make that saddle. More than likely they never went to any formal teaching institution and even tho they call themselves a master saddler, never gained a recognised qualification. The skills you now have have been passed down from generation to generation and were formulated pre litigious society.

Who then has carried out the engineering test specifications to say the ticket 18 3 cord you have used to stitch up that item is rated to tensile strength X and that the worlds best practice for that item is to stitch X stitches per inch for X distance using ASTM stitch pattern 301. Or what about the buckle you have used. What stresses can it withstand. How many tree makers have had engineering testing done on their trees. What is the life of that spool of thread sitting in the shelf for umpteen years before it degrades or the Nylon spool sitting by the window being degraded by sunlight before we decide to use it. We can go on and on with all the materials that we use.

Add to this the saddler who allows a customer to come into their shop and venture past the display case into the actual workshop. That customer then leans against the splitter and cuts themselves. What about the apprentice you take on who electrocutes themselves on the stitcher that has not been electrically tested since Jesus played full back for jerusalem or who uses the Neatlac made from Toluene and heaven forbid you have not provided the correct PPE or disposed of the empty tin in accordance with local chemical regulations.

Do I think some of what I have said is ridiculous, ABSOLUTELY. But when your item of tack has broken and someone injured riding that living breathing animal listens to the advice of a certain money grabbing profession BEWARE. We are involved in an old profession/hobby in a modern society. Is it any wonder some saddle makers are getting their customers to sign disclaimers.

Just my 2 bobs/cents worth.

Barra

Edited July 20, 2007 by barra

[Go2Tex]

Thanks Barra, your 2 bobs makes a lot of cents, er, sense. I hadn't really given any of this much thought until recently but I suppose it's a necessary evil in a world controlled by these "certain money grabbing profession" bottom dwelling scavengers.

Well, looks like I'm gonna have to be raising my prices to pay for all the insurance and legal fees, incorporation, homesteading, quick deeding to my dead horse or whatever it takes to protect my ass-ets.

Because of the "deep pockets" nature of litigation, it's become a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If you have insurance you become a target, but if you don't you could get sued anyway and end up losing your house and first born.

Maybe I'll just go into the key fob business. Not much liability there.

[greg gomersall]

Go2tex I have a policy thru Zurich Ins. for my shop. It is a seperate building right here on my place. It covers the building, inventory, tools and equipment, etc. It also covers liability if someone were to slip and fall at the shop or such thing but it doesn't cover me for product liability. like yourself I'm not new in this business but they would not even quote me on the product liability end. I pay just under a grand a year for the coverage I have. Greg

[Go2Tex]

Thanks Greg. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. But it does confirm my worst fears. My costs just took another huge jump..... which means my hourly wage is now somewhere between "almost nothing" and "why and I doing this?" :

[mulefool]

If a person could figure out a way to injure themselves with a key fob, it's probably happened. I have my shop on my property in a separate building. I have a separate policy on the business through the same company, Allstate, that has our house and cars and trucks. I have the shop and contents insured for about $100,000 although I don't think I have that much in there, they seem to think so. I have 2 million in liability. It seems like there's always things included that you don't think you need. Theres something where if a person injures themselves on the property, even if it is completely NOT my fault, they will still pay up to $500 for any medical bills as a "good name" type of deal.. Although I bet if I ever actually used it I'd be sorry when I got the next bill. For this I pay $1,300.00 per year. I guess in the back of my mind is the fact we could lose our place over some frivolous lawsuit and the $1300 per year helps me sleep at night. Now I need to be thinking about whether to change from a sole proprietorship to a Limited Liability Corporation. I think each state has it's own rules on that.