CB 4500 Thread Tension

[Hildebrand]

I have a new CB 4500, thanks Cowboy Bob, it came set up with white thread and it sews great with it.  I changed over to brown thread and it seems to be pulled further into the leather than the white.  277 thread in both colors and top and bottom.

My question is, do you normally have to adjust tension with the different color threads.  I am going to double check and make sure I have it threaded correctly tonight when I get home.

Thanks,

Todd

[JLSleather]

normally changing COLOR would not affect tension, though changing TYPE of thread might (nylon to poly, or to linen, etc).  You do have to make sure it's threaded right, and since that's the only thing you changed that does sound suspect.

I say "normally" because I HAVE seen changing thread colors "booger up" the works .. moving from a natural thread that was quite lubed to a black thread that was the same size but stiffer and drier ... that DID affect the game.  If you got Bob's thread in both, it's likely not the problem.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

Color of thread does indeed change the stiffness of the thread.  I think the chemistry of the dyes changes how the bonding affects the thread.  I have 3-4 different brands of thread in my store, and in all of them, the darker colors are more stiff, more wiry .   White/naturals tend to be softest.  browns/blacks more wiry.    

Stiffness of the thread affects how the tension discs work on the thread, and the shape of the loop created by the rising needle.  Normally, softer threads need a touch more tension to get perfect, and wiry threads a touch less.    

[chrisash]

I second that as spent many years owning a embroidery company and working with say 5 or 7 ounce poly/cotton which is quite thin, when we changed the colour of the thread on any of the needles the knot would move, up for white and down for black and pro rata for those inbetween. really noticable as the under thread was always white normally against a coloured cloth

[Hildebrand]

I appreciate the replies.

I spent last evening doing battle and still lost.  Confirmed thread path was correct, started backing off primary and secondary tension(upper) as in the utube video in 2:1 ratio primary to secondary.  I got to the point where there is no primary tension and minimal secondary and you can see from the pictures there is essentially no change.  Am I wanting too much or am I just missing something.  Confirmed white and brown are both 277 size.  First picture is the front, second is the back.  weight of both test pieces is about 14 oz.

Thanks,

Todd

 

[JLSleather]

WHat needle is that?@!

[Hildebrand]

I'd have to look at the package but pretty sure its a #25.  Its what came with the machine.

[brmax]

Seems a few charts show a 25 as minimum needle choice. This may be general as some leather is hard as a rock. 

In my pack of; Organ 7x4NW, DYx3LL= 200/25. The needle could slide on the 277 thread extremely quick, if one is doing that typical needle thread sizing. 

So I would care to hear if others use a smaller needle with veg tan and 277thread, in ten ounce leather or there abouts. 

 

Good day

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

I am only addressing the needle, not the tension (which is variable).

That is an S point System 794 needle. It is probably a #25. Check the open package to verify the number.

There are two commonly available types of leather point needles for the 441 type machines. S and D. The S slices lengthwise. The D has a triangular or diamond point and it pokes a 3 sided fairly narrow hole in comparison. For any stitch length setting, a D point needle lays a longer looking stitch on top and on the bottom.

The needle bar pivots from the top, like a pendulum. The thicker the stack of leather, the shorter the stitches are, compared to a single piece of 8 ounce leather. Throw a slicing point needle into the mix and you get those huge dashes between the thread ends. You can compensate by lengthening the stitches for thick stacks. Do this by lowering the stitch lever. Loosen the nut  on the threads to lower the lever.

If you want to sew close stitches in thick leather, buy some D point needles. The gaps will be farther apart than an S point needle.

[JLSleather]

Well, yah.. I like a 24 needle.  And you got what... "S" point, or maybe a "D"? 

You could measure, but you may not be getting "pulled further in"... some of what you are seeing is likely optical due to thread color.  Your needle makes it "appear" there is space between stitches (there isn't - or it would break).. due to the point geometry.  Brown is closer to natural color of the leather, white will show more readily.

I like 277 thread with size 24 "LL" point needles.  My preference   It does this ...

 

[JLSleather]

4 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

D point needles. The gaps will be farther apart than an S point needle.

Wiz replying at same time.  Same answer, basically.  Different SHAPE hole, makes it APPEAR to EFFECTIVELY be longer stitch, even though stitch length has not changed.  And due to shape of hole (an inline slice verses a triangle) the stitch may actually pull deeper. And at the SAME DEPTH, the darker thread will APPEAR deeper.

PAY NO ATTENTION to teh red arrow on the picture... I sent that to a fella to talk him out of white thread on natural leather

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by JLSleather

[Hildebrand]

JLS,

Where do you find the LL needles?

Thanks,

Todd

[JLSleather]

ebay

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by JLSleather