cb4500 stitch issue with webbing

[alpha2]

Whenever I try to stitch webbing, I have an issue with a loop being created, which usually wraps around the presser foot. It might run an entire run of two or three inches before it starts happening. I've tried to adjust first the upper tension, then the lower tension, then both, but it still happens. I'm using a 7x3#24 needle, and size 138 bonded polyester pre-lubed thread. I've tried two or three needles of the same size to make sure it's not a bent or burred needle. I thought before I chased my tail anymore, I'd see if there is an easy explanation for this. 

Jeff

It doesn't always wrap around the bobbin case, either. I just found that today. I had noticed the extra thread coming up from the bobbin, but didn't know why, now I do!

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by alpha2

[kgg]

Have you checked the way the bobbin is installed? The bobbin thread needs to be coming off the bobbin in a counter clockwise fashion otherwise weird stuff can happen to do a quick check hold the bobbin case in your right hand between your thumb and index finger, grab the thread with your left hand and pull the bobbin must rotate counter clockwise.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

Webbing has very little resistance to a big needle being driven at 9:1 pulley ratio. It's like sewing air after making a hole with an M16 round. You may need to start playing with the check spring throw. Try dropping the bottom stop bracket so the spring goes farther down. Also, try using a #23 needle instead (7x3 round point only).

Can you post a close-up photo of your thread path around the bottom tensioner and check spring, with the spring at read against the stopper?

Another thing that may affect the outcome is the thread tensions and pressure of the feet.

If all else fails, try substituting the standard throat pate and feed dog for just the narrow slotted throat plate. Its narrow slot doesn't let softer materials get pushed into the slot as much as the humongous hole in the standard feed dog. In fact, you might just try changing the feed dog to the blanket feed dog that has a smaller hole and teeth. The teeth will help move the slippery webbing better than the smooth dog and the smaller hole may hold the material up better.

[alpha2]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

Have you checked the way the bobbin is installed? The bobbin thread needs to be coming off the bobbin in a counter clockwise fashion otherwise weird stuff can happen to do a quick check hold the bobbin case in your right hand between your thumb and index finger, grab the thread with your left hand and pull the bobbin must rotate counter clockwise.

kgg

I did have that wrong. I misunderstood the picture in the manual. Never been an issue with leather? Go figure. That didn't solve the problem though.

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

Webbing has very little resistance to a big needle being driven at 9:1 pulley ratio. It's like sewing air after making a hole with an M16 round. You may need to start playing with the check spring throw. Try dropping the bottom stop bracket so the spring goes farther down. Also, try using a #23 needle instead (7x3 round point only).

Can you post a close-up photo of your thread path around the bottom tensioner and check spring, with the spring at read against the stopper?

Another thing that may affect the outcome is the thread tensions and pressure of the feet.

If all else fails, try substituting the standard throat pate and feed dog for just the narrow slotted throat plate. Its narrow slot doesn't let softer materials get pushed into the slot as much as the humongous hole in the standard feed dog. In fact, you might just try changing the feed dog to the blanket feed dog that has a smaller hole and teeth. The teeth will help move the slippery webbing better than the smooth dog and the smaller hole may hold the material up better.

Here's the pics. I lightened the upper thread tension quite a bit. In the pic with the arrows, I had followed a video online and had the thread in the left side of this part, I moved it to the right side after seeing a note in the manual. I don't know how much difference this will make, but it makes more sense, as now the thread will be riding on the screw instead of the edge the sheet metal part. I'll let you see the pics before I go to the switching out of the plate and dog.

Is the amount of slack in the last pic normal?

 

 

[kgg]

Did you thread the thread through the hole just above the needle in the needle drive shaft before threading the eye of the needle?

kgg

[alpha2]

Yep. I changed to the blanket presser foot and needle bar, that seemed to fix the problem. I wish just once I could put a part on this machine and not have to re-machine it to fit. I'm beginning to think it would be better to just buy the Juki parts and be done with it. The knock offs are a joke. I had to file and ream and sand on both the blanket parts. Sorry, rant over! 

[catskin]

1 hour ago, alpha2 said:

Yep. I changed to the blanket presser foot and needle bar, that seemed to fix the problem. I wish just once I could put a part on this machine and not have to re-machine it to fit. I'm beginning to think it would be better to just buy the Juki parts and be done with it. The knock offs are a joke. I had to file and ream and sand on both the blanket parts. Sorry, rant over! 

When and where did you get this machine?  Hardly any parts look like my Cowboy 4500 the parts on yours are all rough where mine are smooth and shiny I have never had to make any adjustments to any parts that came with my machine.  Tension discs thread guides bobbin case all look cheap made compared to mine. Or is this just a copy made by somebody else that is supposed to be like a Cowboy.

[alpha2]

First, let me say that when I saw the blown up images, I couldn't believe how bad they looked. With just your eyes they don't look that bad at all. However, every part I put on the machine, that wasn't on the machine when I received it, had to be altered. Filed, sanded, bent, to make them fit the machine. I hadn't tried to use the blanket foot and needle bar until this afternoon, I had to file the channel in the presser foot so it would fit on the square shaft, and the needle foot had to be reamed and sanded so it would fit on the round shaft. The machine is about a year old. I'm not going to say who I got it from, as I decided to fit the parts myself, and didn't give the dealer the opportunity to make it right. That's on me. All I'm saying is that wherever these parts are coming from, they seriously need to go back. To pass them on to the unsuspecting final purchaser would be expecting all of them to have the experience and tools to make them fit. That is extremely unlikely. When you say "supposed to be like a Cowboy", you have to remember that Cowboy is a cheaper knock off Chinese copy of a Juki. I didn't spend the money to get a Juki. If I had to buy a Juki, I wouldn't have an industrial stitcher at all. That's on me, too. But, I would expect the accessory parts to fit right out of the bag. Oh, and I had to file the cylinder casting to easily remove and replace the bobbin and shuttle parts. And the needle plate needed to be ground down so the edge guide could get close to the needle. But, hey, I saved a couple of thousand dollars over a Juki. My choice.

Jeff

[SolarLeatherMachines]

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Edited January 21, 2019 by SolarLeatherMachines

[catskin]

44 minutes ago, alpha2 said:

First, let me say that when I saw the blown up images, I couldn't believe how bad they looked. With just your eyes they don't look that bad at all. However, every part I put on the machine, that wasn't on the machine when I received it, had to be altered. Filed, sanded, bent, to make them fit the machine. I hadn't tried to use the blanket foot and needle bar until this afternoon, I had to file the channel in the presser foot so it would fit on the square shaft, and the needle foot had to be reamed and sanded so it would fit on the round shaft. The machine is about a year old. I'm not going to say who I got it from, as I decided to fit the parts myself, and didn't give the dealer the opportunity to make it right. That's on me. All I'm saying is that wherever these parts are coming from, they seriously need to go back. To pass them on to the unsuspecting final purchaser would be expecting all of them to have the experience and tools to make them fit. That is extremely unlikely. When you say "supposed to be like a Cowboy", you have to remember that Cowboy is a cheaper knock off Chinese copy of a Juki. I didn't spend the money to get a Juki. If I had to buy a Juki, I wouldn't have an industrial stitcher at all. That's on me, too. But, I would expect the accessory parts to fit right out of the bag. Oh, and I had to file the cylinder casting to easily remove and replace the bobbin and shuttle parts. And the needle plate needed to be ground down so the edge guide could get close to the needle. But, hey, I saved a couple of thousand dollars over a Juki. My choice.

Jeff

If Cowboy machines now are like that I am glad I bought mine several years ago.  There are apparently lots of companies copying the JUKI and some do better than others.  That is why I wondered if this was maybe a shipped from china machine that was not from the same place Cowboy comes from.  But claimed to be equal.  For example those parts in the pictures don't look stainless steel as mine are.

[Colt W Knight]

Is this new spool of black thread? I've gotten black thread in the past that just wouldn't sew

[Wizcrafts]

I think you could use more travel in the check spring. Loosen and lower the bracket that stops the spring at the bottom. Try to get about 1/8 inch more drop.

Did you change the feed dog to the one with teeth and the smaller hole? It is part of the blanket foot set.

You can probably stand to back off the foot pressure hollow screw on top for webbing. Less pressure on the inside foot should mean less puckering into the feed dog on the bottom.

[alpha2]

1. The parts are stainless, except for the blanket set.

2. New spool of thread, Colt. I'd heard that too. I had to look up what luthiery is. FYI, spell correct changes that to "thievery"!

3. I'll lower the check spring. I was trying to imitate what I saw in videos as to the correct angle.  I didn't get a toothed feed dog in my set, just a smooth one,  the needle plate and presser feet. The presser feet in the blanket set are huge! I don't know if I will be able to see the work well enough with them. The hole in the smooth feed dog is more of a slot. You may have meant keep the leather feet and just change the feed dog. I can order the toothed feed dog. And, finally, I DID forget to back off the foot pressure adjustment from the leather setting. I have to say, I can see why a lot of you have numerous machines! Changing this one from leather to an occasional webbing job is a royal pain.

4. Let me see if I can explain this. If the bobbin case is horizontal, with the bobbin coming out on the left side, I had the thread coming off the top of the bobbin. Apparently, it's supposed to come off the bottom and out through the case. The picture I have in the "manual" didn't appear to show it that way, but yesterday I noticed an arrow on the bobbin itself in the picture, and mine was going the other way. I've only sewn two layer of heavyweight webbing since I went to the blanket set pressure feet and corrected the bobbin feed, and it's working okay now. 

 

Thanks, guys!

Jeff

[Wizcrafts]

The check spring's job is to keep the thread taut until the needle enters the work. Is it stops moving down too soon the thread will be loose at the tip of the needle, where it can get pierced. the only caveat is that it must stop moving down before the needle starts ascending to form a loop for the hook to pick off. Otherwise, no loop for you!

[alpha2]

Thanks, I'll check that. 

I just put the narrow needle plate on, and the regular presser foot, tightened the lower thread tension, and tried it. Pretty good. I can occasionally see a small loop start, but then get pulled down, and not enough to catch the needle bar foot like it was doing before. 

[Brazo]

On 1/20/2019 at 7:19 PM, alpha2 said:

First, let me say that when I saw the blown up images, I couldn't believe how bad they looked. With just your eyes they don't look that bad at all. However, every part I put on the machine, that wasn't on the machine when I received it, had to be altered. Filed, sanded, bent, to make them fit the machine. I hadn't tried to use the blanket foot and needle bar until this afternoon, I had to file the channel in the presser foot so it would fit on the square shaft, and the needle foot had to be reamed and sanded so it would fit on the round shaft. The machine is about a year old. I'm not going to say who I got it from, as I decided to fit the parts myself, and didn't give the dealer the opportunity to make it right. That's on me. All I'm saying is that wherever these parts are coming from, they seriously need to go back. To pass them on to the unsuspecting final purchaser would be expecting all of them to have the experience and tools to make them fit. That is extremely unlikely. When you say "supposed to be like a Cowboy", you have to remember that Cowboy is a cheaper knock off Chinese copy of a Juki. I didn't spend the money to get a Juki. If I had to buy a Juki, I wouldn't have an industrial stitcher at all. That's on me, too. But, I would expect the accessory parts to fit right out of the bag. Oh, and I had to file the cylinder casting to easily remove and replace the bobbin and shuttle parts. And the needle plate needed to be ground down so the edge guide could get close to the needle. But, hey, I saved a couple of thousand dollars over a Juki. My choice.

Jeff

Which dealer did you buy you CB4500 from?

[Smartee]

I'm currently looking to purchase a machine and Cowboy is one of the ones I'm looking at.  You stated "supposed to be like a Cowboy" - am I to assume this isn't an actual Cowboy and one of the machines that ship directly to the purchaser without being set up and run off of?

Thanks!

[shoepatcher]

I am going to post this here since people with 441 clones are reading this..  Beiler's in Pennsylvania  sells a flat throat plate for the 441 similar to the one Weaver makes and sells for the 205.  Unlike that flat plat that is now available in which you have to remove the feed dog to use it, this plate has the slot to leave the feed dog in.  I have one of the flat plates from Weaver.  It is easier to sew items with this plate over the curved plate that comes with the machines.  I think Beiler's sells the plate for around $40.00.  Yeah, they are not a dealer that advertises on this site but they seam to be the only one that has this plate available for sale. Guys and gals owning a Cobra, Cowboy or the like, buy one of the plates.  You will thank me later.

glenn

[catskin]

From reading on here a lot it seems that there are more then one company that is copying the juki 441.  And some seem to have better quality control than others.  And that the poor ones get sold as like Cowboy, Cobra etc. on internet E-bay type of places.

[shoepatcher]

Keep in mind, there are 3 classes of manufacturers of sewing machines in China.    I call them A, B and C.  Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew are Grade A manufacturers.  Great machines with very few problems.  The B grade manufacturers can make pretty good machines and can make some bad ones.  It is a crap shoot at times. The C grade manufacturers make boat anchors.  Period.  You must know which class of manufacturer your machine comes from.   Steve at Cobra, Bob and Alexander on Cowboy,  Ralph at Techsew  have all spent years establishing their reputations as well as getting machines that work.  When you buy a machine form these guys, they have been gone thru to eliminate problems, check settings,  check and tighten all the nuts bolts and set screws.  That takes time and knowledge.  These dealers have that.  Unless you know how to work on these machines, buy from them, if for nothing more, peace of mind.  Pay the extra money and get a proven one or you will regret it later both in time and money.  Tell me I am wrong. 

Buy the way, a new  genuine Juki TSC-441 now costs about $6500.00 set up.  Not CHEAP!

glenn

Edited January 28, 2019 by shoepatcher
grammar, content

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

I am going to post this here since people with 441 clones are reading this..  Beiler's in Pennsylvania  sells a flat throat plate for the 441 similar to the one Weaver makes and sells for the 205.  Unlike that flat plat that is now available in which you have to remove the feed dog to use it, this plate has the slot to leave the feed dog in.  I have one of the flat plates from Weaver.  It is easier to sew items with this plate over the curved plate that comes with the machines.  I think Beiler's sells the plate for around $40.00.  Yeah, they are not a dealer that advertises on this site but they seam to be the only one that has this plate available for sale. Guys and gals owning a Cobra, Cowboy or the like, buy one of the plates.  You will thank me later.

glenn

I can't find this company in a Google search. Would you know if they have a website, or are on social media? A link would help.

[shoepatcher]

Wiz,  the part # is 44712  A-22-F  Flat throat plate for feed dog, wide slot    price $48.00 

They sell the genuine Juki 441 as well as a clone  No web site.  They compete against Weaver.   Ask for a catalogue.  My hope is you will get a throat plate, use it and put out the word.  Bob at Toledo does not carry one if I remember correctly.

Beiler's Manufacturing and Supply

3025 Harvest Drive

Ronks, PA 17572

717-768-0097  

Hope that helps.

glenn

 

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

43 minutes ago, shoepatcher said:

Wiz,  the part # is 44712  A-22-F  Flat throat plate for feed dog, wide slot    price $48.00 

Bob at Toledo does not carry one if I remember correctly.

glenn

Bob  has always had a flat slotted throat plate since he started carrying the Cowboy machines. I have one in my shop. The only difference is that the Cowboy slotted plate requires removal of the feed dog. It is very thin, just like the standard curved plate. This takes me about 5 minutes.

I will contact the Amish Country dealer about his plate.

Thanks Glenn.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

20 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

Keep in mind, there are 3 classes of manufacturers of sewing machines in China.    I call them A, B and C.  Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew are Grade A manufacturers.  Great machines with very few problems.  The B grade manufacturers can make pretty good machines and can make some bad ones.  It is a crap shoot at times. The C grade manufacturers make boat anchors.  Period.  You must know which class of manufacturer your machine comes from.   Steve at Cobra, Bob and Alexander on Cowboy,  Ralph at Techsew  have all spent years establishing their reputations as well as getting machines that work.  When you buy a machine form these guys, they have been gone thru to eliminate problems, check settings,  check and tighten all the nuts bolts and set screws.  That takes time and knowledge.  These dealers have that.  Unless you know how to work on these machines, buy from them, if for nothing more, peace of mind.  Pay the extra money and get a proven one or you will regret it later both in time and money.  Tell me I am wrong. 

Buy the way, a new  genuine Juki TSC-441 now costs about $6500.00 set up.  Not CHEAP!

glenn

Thank you very much for the high praise!  It's an honor to be included with those names.  Sincerely, thank you.  

Alexander

[shoepatcher]

Wiz,

When you remove the feed dog on the 441 Clone to put the their flat plate on, you have loss 1/3 of your feeding power.  In essence, you have a needle and top feed machine.  This plate that Beiler's sells lets you leave the feed dog in but with a flat needle plate.   Much easier to sew on than the curved plate, believe me.  I will not go back to the curved plate on my 205!

glenn