Looking for cylinder arm for leatherbag making. Necchi 840-100

[luxuryluke]

This is part two of many posts like this until I find a machine for me and get a handle more on leather machine sin gnereal. It’s rare that a nice used cylinder arm machine becomes available around here. I’ve started prototyping bag patterns to sell. Both vegtan and chrome tanned. I've posted about Pfaff and other cylinder arm machines available on Craigslist previously. 

Spotted this machine available nearby. Has anyone used a Necchi cylinder arm machine for leather bag making? 

This is the Necchi 840-100 model. Looks brand new despite its age. It’s a lower barrier to entry for me rather than a new machine, but obviously there’s no warranty. Seller says they have spare parts and manual. Clearly I’d need to add a servo and speed reducer.

Question:

1. how rare are these parts?

2. Is this a good machine for a person like me?

3. what do you think it’s worth?

Any info is helpful. Thanks.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by luxuryluke
Added info, considerations

[Wizcrafts]

It has what appears to be a synchronized binder attachment on the arm. Some binder machines have a special feed dog motion that is not conducive to feeding material without the binder. You need to check if the feed dog actually cycles backward, down, forward, then up, or if it just moves forward and backward (for loading edge bias tape).

Other than that I know nothing about this machine. Ask the seller what they used it for and how it sews. Ask about the range of thread and needle sizes they have used. It may be too light duty for leather, or not.

[dikman]

Looks very similar to a Pfaff 335? The arm and binding attachment certainly looks like the Pfaff version. As Wiz pointed out, being a binder it's highly likely that the feed dog only moves back and forth and may be smooth. It could be a handy machine to have (if the price is right), but perhaps not if it's going to be your only machine.

[kgg]

The machine looks in really nice shape but my concern would be repair parts since Necchi don't seem to be that common of a machine.

kgg

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

31 minutes ago, kgg said:

The machine looks in really nice shape but my concern would be repair parts since Necchi don't seem to be that common of a machine.

kgg

Italian manufacturer company, top quality machine, zero parts they are no longer in business.

[luxuryluke]

7 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

It has what appears to be a synchronized binder attachment on the arm…

Yes, the seller states they’ll be switching it back to regular operation. 

Thanks, everyone, that’s very helpful feedback! I’ll share any extra info I find about it. Until then, look at this performance:

 

[shoepatcher]

It sure looks like Pfaff made this machine for Necchi.

[luxuryluke]

9 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

It sure looks like Pfaff made this machine for Necchi.

Indeed. Is Pfaff the originator of this shape/type of cylinder machine or is Adler? Or even someone else?

[dikman]

I noticed that when sewing 12 mm of leather it stopped feeding partway through, too much of a load I would think.

" Yes, the seller states they’ll be switching it back to regular operation. " I'd want to find out exactly what he means by that, just what parts are going to be restored.

[RockyAussie]

If your bag designs can use a binder it would be likely quite useful. It is very 335 style and they can be very helpful in making up to medium weight bags. These bags below I made with one.

[shoepatcher]

I think Pfaff came out with this machine first.   Adler could not have been two far behind it.   Singer actually made one like this before they came out with the 153 class.  I cannot remember what the class of machine the early Singer was.

The video showing the Necchi sewing 12 mm of leather to  mean meant it could get it under the foot but it was just to thick to feed on this machine because it does not have 4 motion drop feed. I would say the Necchi bottoms out with feeding  something at about 3/8".

glenn

[luxuryluke]

19 hours ago, dikman said:

I noticed that when sewing 12 mm of leather it stopped feeding partway through, too much of a load I would think.

Thanks, yeah I noticed that.

14 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

These bags below I made with one.

These are beauts, @RockyAussie!

3 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

I would say the Necchi bottoms out with feeding  something at about 3/8".

Interesting point. I did notice that. 

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It’s pretty hard finding a good cylinder arm for under $1300 around here. This one is reasonably priced and is a low enough price to get me started making prototypes at least. If I start steering more towards just veg tan I’ll swap this for a cobra or something similar. I’ll keep you updated. 

[Bugstruck]

Others who commented know this machine or variant, I do not. At say $650.00 though, based on the video and your comments, I would own it. You are correct. It is not close to a Cobra or my machine but where it works, it works. Just know what Gregg said is reality. The others have offered good advice too. 

 

 

 

 

[luxuryluke]

Thank you, @Bugstruck. 

I've spoken with the seller who was wonderfully helpful and generous timewise, and am going out to purchase it in a few days (half a day's drive).

Found out that this model is closest to (a clone of?) the Adler 69 and Pfaff 335 cylinder arm machines and that in fact Pfaff replacement parts work on it. Pictures of the original 335 machines look very close to this casting, indeed, at least to my eyes.
The binder equipment is easily swappable when not needed, and the manual describes the process, too.
I'll be setting it up with a Speed Reducer and (hopefully brushless) servo motor after inspection. I've read a few threads about these steps, but I'm curious to see if workers have thoughts on these two items being used on old cylinder machines, notes, warnings, etc.
I'll certainly post as many pics and info about this machine if people are interested. Is there a section to post scanned in manuals or other reference material for machines here?

Updates soon.

[JJN]

@luxuryluke, I've been lurking looking at that machine since a couple hours after it was posted. I've been wanting to get a dedicated binding machine. I live in southern Oregon and was seriously considering pulling the trigger on that machine and driving up to get it. It is a beautiful machine! My only concern was getting parts, but since you confirmed it can use Pfaff parts, it is a good choice. I'm very glad you are getting it. That is a great price too. I can't wait to see some posts of how it works out for you.

[brmax]

If you take a look around the site here and consider a larger handwheel pulley change, and install a plain servo without positioning, this would be exceptional. Imo

 

good day

Floyd

[dikman]

No problems with fitting a servo to this machine. As Floyd said, you can fit a speed reducer or swap the handwheel for a larger pulley (which is what I did on my Pfaff 335). 

[koreric75]

i definitely have been waiting for one of these to come across my path, specifically for binding on bags with chrome/oil tanned leather.  Currently i've been building them inside out and turning them or using lighter veg tan and burnishing, or Mexican braid lacing to cover the edges...it's working for now, but there is definitely a place for a dedicated binding machine in my shop...not physically, but logically...lol

[luxuryluke]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:00 AM, JJN said:

I'm very glad you are getting it.

Ha! Small world, eh? Thanks, @JJN. I hope it’s everything you and I make it out to be.

 

On 2/28/2019 at 11:45 AM, brmax said:

…larger handwheel pulley change…

Thanks for the tip, @brmax. It hadn’t occurred to me that handwheels were to be modded like this. I’ll search around for something like that. 

 

On 2/28/2019 at 1:17 PM, dikman said:

…which is what I did on my Pfaff 335…

I’d love to see a pic or learn more about this, @dikman!

 

On 2/28/2019 at 4:04 PM, koreric75 said:

…specifically for binding on bags…

I’d love to see some pics of your work, @koreric75

[koreric75]

11 hours ago, luxuryluke said:

I’d love to see some pics of your work, @koreric75

I have a few pictures up here in gallery and more on Facebook or Instagram @Bluefalconleather...

 

 

[luxuryluke]

(I'd love to change the title of this thread to be specifically about this model Necchi machine)

Success!
Drove down to Portland to pick up the machine from CL seller this week. It's a beautiful machine. Seller gave all sorts of great advice on how to use it normally and with the RB (rotative bindery) attachments.

It sewed wonderfully, and the clutch motor was actually pretty quiet, but likely too fast for my needs. I need to have it acclimatize to normal temperatures in the office for a bit and we'll start sewing with it this week.

Considerations now:

1. Which Servo will I go with? After all of my research here and comparing specs/speeds/and power, I'll likely just call Bob @ Toledo as many here have suggested. 
2. Is it recommended or even smart to run a Speed Reducer along with a Needle Positioning sensor?
3. Need to learn what range of thread sizes this machine can tolerate. I know it states that it uses the 134 needle system and it is running T90 thread currently.
4. Has anyone used some of those flexible round pulley belts on their machines? Seems like it'd be nicer in the hand than a regular belt.

Here's a pic of the handwheel on the 840-100 and the old bobbin winder that needs to be oiled and put back into proper service:

Any helpful info is surely welcome! More info about this machine will go here in the future.

Edited March 8, 2019 by luxuryluke
typo

[luxuryluke]

Found out that this machine takes a Singer bobbin case #173058

[Bugstruck]

Your bobbin winder was for a leather belt setup I'd think. Haven't tried the new round belts, can't bring myself to it on vintage (leather belt) machines. Only appearance related here (others may like that look), they likely work fine and no doubt run cleaner than leather. I am not certain a needle position setup works with a speed reducer (I don't run any), ask Bob if nobody answers that. Speed reducer is best with a servo for speed control and penetration power as you know. However, my old Adler 67 flatbed with a small servo motor pulley, that setup works well enough for what I throw at it. Gets up to 1/4" vegtan on occasion but usually on the Cowboy at that thickness or more as it taps out at over 138 thread. The Adler wouldn't suffice for most pros in a volume setting for a couple of reasons but beyond okay for a hobbyist (me) with that small pulley setup. Something to consider. You could always add a reducer later and I don't see it as necessary until you are sewing thicker material and over 138 thread.

Grab a few v-belt sizes if you are mounting a new motor and changing pulleys, I never seem to nail the belt length right the first time on a new setup. I'd also vote for less automation (needle position) if you are coming from hand sewing. Forces you to get familiar faster with the hand wheel and brake release. If you are like me you will not be a fan of a brake on any machine at the speeds we typically sew. Just an annoyance IMO but it does keep the needle parked, safety, maybe? I don't even buy the safety thing on an exposed belt. Perhaps of some actual use sewing fast on thin materials. I'd much rather hand break any machine.

 

[luxuryluke]

I’m not sure this is the machine for me, but it is a lovely machine, that much is true. I think I need a machine for thick work that say a Cobra could handle. It doesn’t appear to me that sewing leather with T90 thread is tough enough.

Thanks for the tips, @Bugstruck. Great points there. Getting a newer machine might be the solution for my needs.

[Bugstruck]

1 hour ago, luxuryluke said:

I’m not sure this is the machine for me, but it is a lovely machine, that much is true. I think I need a machine for thick work that say a Cobra could handle. It doesn’t appear to me that sewing leather with T90 thread is tough enough.

Thanks for the tips, @Bugstruck. Great points there. Getting a newer machine might be the solution for my needs.

Luke, I would not part with that machine without giving it some serious thought. I had and still have old Singer home-type iron (cut my teeth working on and restoring them), then as my need to sew heavier products materialized, I got the Adler walking foot, then when heavier leather got in my blood the Cowboy 4500. Then I needed something less robust than either of them for wallet interiors and lighter work. Yep, needed a third machine and still looking. Believe me, they all fill a capability niche. Your machine and a heavy leather stitcher are a pretty good combo. Plenty the heavy stitcher is not well or at all suited for, even in leather. Certainly use it awhile before you unload it. You need a light to medium machine before you need any other, My experience anyhow.

I'd learn and use that machine well before I got a heavy stitcher. Learning curve is fairly quick but what you learn on it will go a long way with other machines that are less set it and forget it oriented. Love my 4500 (Cobra would be the same) but even with all the prior knowledge I'd gained it took some getting use to. They throw a very wide range of thread and will handle a wide range of materials, very capable, so they take more time to learn what they like. Having good experience on yours will make that upgrade easier.

Either way though, good luck in your endeavors.