Fortuna Skiving Machine Restoration

[lintonleather]

I have recently purchased a used Fortuna Skiving machine. The machine is working however the blade is very dull and it has an old metal feed wheel and a well used sharpening stone. Also the belts are old leather straps that could do with tightening. 

After watching a few YouTube video I have embarked on restoring it and getting it back in tip top shape. However my knowledge on these machines is very limited so wish me luck!

Can anyone help me with the following?

1. How do you replace the blade? I have striped the machine down and unscrewed the 4 screws in the blade however it’s still fixed in place. 

2. Any tips on how to remove the feed wheel? The screw has seized and is causing me a lot of frustration. I’m about to attempt an impact driver and then heat. However welcome assistance. 

I’m sure there will be more questions soon!

I will upload photos shortly. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by lintonleather

[jimi]

Hi There and welcome, I think you only need to tap lightly on the back of the knife to free it, as for the screw for the feed wheel you might need some WD40 and then try again. It is tightened with an Allen key, is that right??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lintonleather]

Thanks for the reply, I will try and tap the back of the blade and see if that helps. I have infant soaked the screw holding the feed wheel in WD40 and even vinegar to try and clean it however still no joy. Its not an Allen key used to remove this instead a flap screwdriver see the attached images. 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by lintonleather

[jimi]

Possibly a little heat like you said could do the trick??. By the looks of the old paint, flat head screw at the end of the shaft and the brass arm i would think you have possibly the very old model Fortuna??  that looks like a 34mm wheel also? 

Edited April 11, 2019 by jimi

[mikesc]

Try a single drop of brake fluid applied directly to the head of the screw so that it can "sink"in" around the screw..leave it to work for 24 hours..
Diesel oil ( just the stuff that trucks and tractors run on ) will also work, just not quite as well.. need to leave whatever you want to "free up" for longer..

WD40 is not a "releasing oil", despite what many people think, and, despite what it says on the can..it is a water dispersal liquid..

That is what the WD in WD40 stands for..it was the 40th mixture that the inventor tried when he was trying to make a water dispersant..

You can get the same "penetrating oil" effect , as WD40, by adding around 5% acetone to ordinary cooking oil..or sewing machine oil..

Never depend on WD40 to be a "machine oil", there is not enough "lubricating effect" in it..

Do the foregoing .."cold"..no heat applied..

If you want to try "thermal effects" to free up screws, you reduce their temperature..to shrink the screw in the threaded hole..
heating is used to free up nuts around bolts or threads , where you use heat to expand the nut away from what it is threaded onto..
Basic physics..

BTW..brake fluid strips paint ..any paint, even paint that has been on there for decades or centuries , so be precise about where you put it..
and do not let it get on your skin or on your eyes or near any mucous membranes..like your nose..etc ..wash your hands after using it, or touching anything that it touches..and don't drink or sniff it..yeah I know..but some people might be dumb enough to try ( it is like rule 34 , but Darwin awardish* ) ..so ..

* look it up..Darwin awards..

Edited April 11, 2019 by mikesc

[Danne]

59 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Try a single drop of brake fluid applied directly to the head of the screw so that it can "sink"in" around the screw..leave it to work for 24 hours..
Diesel oil ( just the stuff that trucks and tractors run on ) will also work, just not quite as well.. need to leave whatever you want to "free up" for longer..

WD40 is not a "releasing oil", despite what many people think, and, despite what it says on the can..it is a water dispersal liquid..

That is what the WD in WD40 stands for..it was the 40th mixture that the inventor tried when he was trying to make a water dispersant..

You can get the same "penetrating oil" effect , as WD40, by adding around 5% acetone to ordinary cooking oil..or sewing machine oil..

Never depend on WD40 to be a "machine oil", there is not enough "lubricating effect" in it..

Do the foregoing .."cold"..no heat applied..

If you want to try "thermal effects" to free up screws, you reduce their temperature..to shrink the screw in the threaded hole..
heating is used to free up nuts around bolts or threads , where you use heat to expand the nut away from what it is threaded onto..
Basic physics..

Heat works very good for screws too. (Not only nuts) Yes, heat makes the steel expand. What you want is movement. Also, you are going to get a difference in thermal expansion between the two "steels" (The screw, and where it's attached)

Let's just assume the two "steels" would expand with linearity to each other, then the threads would also expand and you get the movement you want for the screw to loosen. 

Ps, I live in Europe and I have worked a decent amount on old cars, here in Europe they tend to rust EVERYWHERE so heat is used very often to break loose screws.

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Danne

[mikesc]

Depends upon the mass of the metal that the screws are threaded into..and the thermal properties of the screw and the metal..as to if "heating the screw" works..usually heating the screw ill make it expand into a hole that it is already stuck in..and thus make the problem worse..
In Europe ( where you and I are ) "pro garage" suppliers sell "freeze aerosols"..specifically for applying to screws that are stuck..in order to use the thermal "shrinking effect"..

PS..physics doesn't care where you are ..which continent or country, or planet etc..physics applies throughout this universe..other universes may have different conditions, in fact I'd expect them to, but such speculation, whilst interesting, is really OT for this thread..but if you want to start a conversation about what might happen in other universes, or within certain things in this one such as black holes, I'm game, if If have the time ..but then time is "relative" eh ;)

Edited April 11, 2019 by mikesc

[jimi]

[aroh99]

The skiving bell is not stuck. After you remove the  screws inside the bell knife you need some of the tools listed below to remove it the bell knife . These are the accessories that come with the machine when you buy it. I was able to screen shot the parts you will need. You can find the manual and parts book here. Best of luck. 

http://www.consew.com/Files/112347/PartsBooks/DCS-S3.pdf

[jimi]

5 minutes ago, aroh99 said:

The skiving bell is not stuck. After you remove the  screws inside the bell knife you need some of the tools listed below to remove it the bell knife

I must be missing something then?? I only see the scrap ejector and the 4 screws?? nothing else holding the knife on??

[Northmount]

There are various types of penetrating oil available.  Lots of different brand names. Loosen-all, penetrating oil, rust remover, etc.

In general, they work better than diesel fuel and other light hydrocarbons.

Tom

[DUBYA]

11 minutes ago, Northmount said:

There are various types of penetrating oil available.  Lots of different brand names. Loosen-all, penetrating oil, rust remover, etc.

In general, they work better than diesel fuel and other light hydrocarbons.

Tom

My personal favorite penetrating oil is 'PB Blaster™".  Works 10X better than WD-40 and costs about the same.

[lintonleather]

Wow some great information thank you guys, let me just recap. 

 

- Brake fluids are a stronger penetrating oil than wd40 this should be applied for 24 hours. 

- Heat could cause a worse issue. However what about if you didn’t heat the screw directly and you heated the surrounding metal? Wouldn’t this cause it to expand more than the screw? 

- Thanks for posting that instructions manual. However where can I buy those tools and where to use them as I only see 4 screws? 

- PB Blaster or an alternative could be used instead of brake fluid? 

[Rockoboy]

50 minutes ago, lintonleather said:

if you didn’t heat the screw directly and you heated the surrounding metal?

By heating the metal around the hole (with the threaded bolt/screw in it), you will be shrinking the hole. As the metal expands, it expands in every direction. You will thereby, be adding to the aforementioned tightening of the bolt/screw.

There is a possibility you could crack the housing, if you applied enough heat. Alternatively, the movement of the metal around the thread, 'might' loosen the thread, but only if its held in by a build-up of corrosion or gunk. 

[lintonleather]

So I should try the brake fluid first then

[Rockoboy]

4 minutes ago, lintonleather said:

I should try the brake fluid first then

Any of the chemical possibilities are less likely to cause you a problem, so yes, I would try one or all of them first.

[mikesc]

You could try this Loctite® 8040 ..

LOCTITE LB 8040
Known as LOCTITE 8040 Freeze & Release
Lubricant - emergency repair. Shock freezing (-40°C). Releases rusted, corroded and seized components. Wicks directly into the rust by capillary action.
LOCTITE® LB 8040 is a special mineral oil designed to free rusted, corroded and seized parts. The shock-freezing effect will cool parts instantly down to -43 °C and cause microscopic cracks in the layer of rust. This allows the lubricating ingredients to wick directly into the rust by capillary action. The product leaves a thin film on the released parts that lubricates and prevents rust.

If you take the part that the screw is stuck in to a motor cycle or auto repair garage that uses it, you can ask them to just give a shot of it straight onto the screw..
it usually comes with a very small diameter tube for precise delivery ( like WD40 ) so the thermal shock effect will be directly to the screw ( which is probably steel ) and not to the surrounding metal ( which is probably cast iron, not steel ) ..try immediately to unscrew it..might take a few goes..If you do a lot of "tinkering" best invest in a can..Here it is about €12.00 per 400 ml can..400ml goes a long waaay..



( or it's equivalent if you can get it where you are ) .. Edited April 12, 2019 by mikesc

[lintonleather]

13 minutes ago, mikesc said:

You could try this Loctite® 8040 ..

 

 

 

 

If you take the part that the screw is stuck in to a motor cycle or auto repair garage that uses it, you can ask them to just give a shot of it straight onto the screw..
it usually comes with a very small diameter tube for precise delivery ( like WD40 ) so the thermal shock effect will be directly to the screw ( which is probably steel ) and not to the surrounding metal ( which is probably cast iron, not steel ) ..try immediately to unscrew it..might take a few goes..If you do a lot of "tinkering" best invest in a can..Here it is about €12.00 per 400 ml can..400ml goes a long waaay..



( or it's equivalent if you can get it where you are ) ..

 

 

 

 

Thanks I will google this

15 hours ago, jimi said:

Possibly a little heat like you said could do the trick??. By the looks of the old paint, flat head screw at the end of the shaft and the brass arm i would think you have possibly the very old model Fortuna??  that looks like a 34mm wheel also? 

Yea I just measured it it’s a 34mm wheel. Anyone know where you can get 34mm wheels at a reasonable price? All the Chinese ones are 50mm 

[mikesc]

Is that the flat head screw and what it is screwed into in the pictures* above ? If so, both the screw and the thing it is stuck in are probably steel..you might be able to just heat the ' spilt bracket looking" thing that the screw is stuck in with a small propane torch ( the kind you'd use for heating copper pipes ) or even a heat gun set on "low" and with the precision nozzle so as to only heat the "bracket" and not the screw..If that is the two parts that are "stuck" then the what you have is equivalent to a nut holding a bolt, the "bracket" corresponding to the "nut" part, heat that part, without heating the screw and you may get lucky..

*for some reason the images didn't "load" when I first read the thread, so I was basing my comments off your description only..which sounded like a classic "screw stuck in larger piece of ( maybe cast ) metal" like a screw stuck in engine block..not having a skiver ( no use for one ) I remember the various pictures that others have posted here, usually of curved cast iron bodied machines.

Edited April 12, 2019 by mikesc

[lintonleather]

7 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Is that the flat head screw and what it is screwed into in the pictures* above ? If so, both the screw and the thing it is stuck in are probably steel..you might be able to just heat the ' spilt bracket looking" thing that the screw is stuck in with a small propane torch ( the kind you'd use for heating copper pipes ) or even a heat gun set on "low" and with the precision nozzle so as to only heat the "bracket" and not the screw..If that is the two parts that are "stuck" then the what you have is equivalent to a nut holding a bolt, the "bracket" corresponding to the "nut" part, heat that part, without heating the screw and you may get lucky..

*for some reason the images didn't "load" when I first read the thread, so I was basing my comments off your description only..which sounded like a classic "screw stuck in larger piece of ( maybe cast ) metal" like a screw stuck in engine block..not having a skiver ( no use for one ) I remember the various pictures that others have posted here, usually of curved cast iron bodied machines.

I have a tourch on standby that I will try and use. It’s definitely a stubborn one to remove. I think it’s collected years of dust and grim off the blade over the years and the result is this. 

[Northmount]

3 hours ago, Rockoboy said:

By heating the metal around the hole (with the threaded bolt/screw in it), you will be shrinking the hole. As the metal expands, it expands in every direction. You will thereby, be adding to the aforementioned tightening of the bolt/screw.

This statement is  not correct.  For the past say 100 years or more we have been heating objects to expand the hole to enable release of nuts, etc.  We heat a ring and drop it over a shaft to act as a bearing retainer for axles.  As soon as the ring cools it shrinks tight to the shaft.  If you look at the molecular level, heating an object causes the molecules to vibrate faster and push away from each other.  So looking at the circumference of a hole, the hole can not get smaller.

One problem with heating a block of metal with a relatively small screw is that the screw heats up nearly as fast as the block of metal. Thus not enough differential expansion to really loosen the screw.  But simply heating to a high temperature (not enough to destroy the properties of the object) and cooling often helps to break the rust or corrosion that has locked the 2 pieces together.

An impact driver is very helpful, but care must be taken to avoid the driver slipping out of the screw slot and damaging the screw slot so you can't get a good grip on it after that.

Tom

[jimi]

8 hours ago, lintonleather said:

Yea I just measured it it’s a 34mm wheel. Anyone know where you can get 34mm wheels at a reasonable price? All the Chinese ones are 50mm 

I don´t see your location so i don´t know which country you are in? UK maybe?? here are two links and both have the Fav parts, failing that you could ask the Fortuna service for prices, I do not think they would vary too much for a normal feed roll. Sieck also sell parts for Fortuna, FAv skivers. The Chinese type 801 feed wheels from Ali express are larger in diameter so you might have to file some metal on your skiver for them to work. Chuck (i think it was?) here on the forum, actually broke one where the two pins enter for engaging it to turn, It looked exactly like the 801 Ali express ones. 

 http://www.fratellialberti.com/lang2/spare-parts.html

https://www.campbell-randall.com/shop/fav-fratelli-alberti

Found it....

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by jimi

[Danne]

2 minutes ago, jimi said:

I don´t see your location so i don´t know which country you are in? UK maybe?? here are two links and both have the Fav parts, failing that you could ask the Fortuna service for prices, I do not think they would vary too much for a normal feed roll. Sieck also sell parts for Fortuna, FAv skivers. The Chinese type 801 feed wheels from Ali express are larger in diameter so you might have to file some metal on your skiver for them to work. Chuck (i think it was?) here on the forum, actually broke one where the two pins enter for engaging it to turn, It looked exactly like the 801 Ali express ones. 

 http://www.fratellialberti.com/lang2/spare-parts.html

https://www.campbell-randall.com/shop/fav-fratelli-alberti

 

I add a link too.

http://www.fortuna-service.com/en/spare_parts/spare_parts_skiving.html

[jimi]

1 minute ago, Danne said:

I add a link too. 

Yes that is the one Danne 

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/skiving/leather-goods-and-automotive-interieur/

[Danne]

2 minutes ago, jimi said:

Yes that is the one Danne 

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/skiving/leather-goods-and-automotive-interieur/

Found this also. Lower shipping if he can buy in the country where he lives.

http://www.fortuna-gmbh.de/EN/WORD_OF_FORTUNA/REPRESENTATIVES/EUROPE/content.php