Anyone ever do an apprenticeship? Was it worth it?

[JC2019]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

Traditionally crocodile was mostly veg tanned but many tanneries went on to doing a mix of chrome first followed by veg to make it faster but also enhance some of the properties in use. Most of the skins I have been given to use from France are Veg tanned and I find them harder and harder to work with when they are glazed.  The glazing process puts a lot of pressure and heat down into the leather as the glass or stone rubs over the skin. The Singapore tanneries mostly do the best tanning I have seen and worked with. They still get a fairly good highlight on the scale compared to ones that I used from Japan. There are various other finishes aside from Glaze and Matt and cost more generally. One I like is a semi glaze from the Chek Hong Tannery which has a beautiful feel and is very nice to skive and work with in general. They do many if not the most of the alligator skins in the world. Alligator is normally about half of the cost of Porosus and is normally a lot less desirable except that may be not so in the USA. I am not an expert in the marketing of these things as I get the skins sent to me from a lot off places and I just make up the product and they get it back. The skins all come with tags on saying what type of skin from where and generally what country it was tanned in. All these skins have to have permits to export, permits to reimport after tanning and re export blah blah blah. They sell me a bit when I want it but mostly I prefer to let them take all of those headaches. We do make wallets and purses and aplenty from glazed skin but I do have a preference myself to the matt as the skin is easier to look after and stays looking good longer.

I wonder how much of it is marketing with exotics  and rarity. For example, have you worked with pirarucu  leather? Is it good to work with? In general I'd be curious to hear your favorite exotics to work with and why, I assume it varies by application. When I went to checkout some exotic leather I was surprised that things I thought I would be impressed by I was not as much as other things. I guess I will need to form my own taste. The two exotics leather crafters I have talked to here in the USA have both said they prefer to work with alligator the most.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by JC2019

[RockyAussie]

I have worked with some fish skins but I would not ever work with something that is not from a farmed situation of any thing rare as I would not ever want to form any temptation for anyone to have any reason to further endanger that species. If it were not for the farming of crocodiles here there would be little education to the public as to why we need to have crocodiles in our river systems. They have to as part of their licences provide education to the public in this regard. This I promote and will stand behind. I have never been convinced for me to want to work with Elephant skin to date. Ostrich skin has some excellent look and wear resistant properties and can easily be bought from farming operations. I prefer porosus for appearance but cane toad and bull frog is stunning as well. Some almost drop it when they find out what it is but it still sells incredibly well. On pen covering the toad easily rivals the croc ones in sales. Horback or the backstrap part of croc can be difficult to work with but often produces products I like a lot.

Here's a few examples might tickle the imagination

The belt and bangles are from croc skin I made in this pic below.

[JC2019]

2 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I have worked with some fish skins but I would not ever work with something that is not from a farmed situation of any thing rare as I would not ever want to form any temptation for anyone to have any reason to further endanger that species. If it were not for the farming of crocodiles here there would be little education to the public as to why we need to have crocodiles in our river systems. They have to as part of their licences provide education to the public in this regard. This I promote and will stand behind. I have never been convinced for me to want to work with Elephant skin to date. Ostrich skin has some excellent look and wear resistant properties and can easily be bought from farming operations. I prefer porosus for appearance but cane toad and bull frog is stunning as well. Some almost drop it when they find out what it is but it still sells incredibly well. On pen covering the toad easily rivals the croc ones in sales. Horback or the backstrap part of croc can be difficult to work with but often produces products I like a lot.

Here's a few examples might tickle the imagination

The belt and bangles are from croc skin I made in this pic below.

Nice.

I will need to checkout the toad bull frog. I had an order with Springfield of various exotic remnants but sadly it didn't arrive but maybe it's for the best, I feel I've learned a bit more already since I ordered it.

 

For the buckles, are they glued with contact cement onto something else or they wrap around and stitch somehow?

[RockyAussie]

5 hours ago, JC2019 said:

For the buckles, are they glued with contact cement onto something else or they wrap around and stitch somehow?

They are onto an Ivan I think metal buckle blank. They have a leather backing on the other side which is about 1/8" oversize then a thin split leather is attached to the top then the croc crown piece is contact glued and attached and cut to shape then edged ironed edged etc. The edging colours are made up here to match. Sometimes I stitch them around but often the scoots get in the way and getting crowns to fit well makes the suitable for stitching ones nearly impossible. getting them apart is nearly impossible so the stitching is only decorative anyway.

[JC2019]

19 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

They are onto an Ivan I think metal buckle blank. They have a leather backing on the other side which is about 1/8" oversize then a thin split leather is attached to the top then the croc crown piece is contact glued and attached and cut to shape then edged ironed edged etc. The edging colours are made up here to match. Sometimes I stitch them around but often the scoots get in the way and getting crowns to fit well makes the suitable for stitching ones nearly impossible. getting them apart is nearly impossible so the stitching is only decorative anyway.

I see thanks.

For working with exotics, how do you normally deal with "splitting"? I assume some skiving  is still involved? What oz / mm thickness do you like to use for your wallets (and interiors?).   Do you often use something like veg tan to reinforce certain materials?

 

Thanks

[RockyAussie]

For splitting it depends on what skin type and even the tanner whether it is glazed or not what product is required and many other factors. Skiving is also normal and the method depends on what is being done. Sometimes by hand sometimes sanding and often a bell knife skiver is used. This below spliiter I have modified mostly for backstrap work on belts and has adjustable spacing rollers to do that work.

This pic shows how it works

The now split backstrap. This can also be done with a sanding machine.

This sanding machine below can be used for the backstrap work but is also can be used for thinning belly skin and leather etc. Here I am using to break the tightness on glazed skin before skiving the edges on some bangles I make.

Here the bell knife skiving is done

What it looks like after the centre seam is stitched

What a few look like prior to having the edges folded.

Lousy pic but that's all I could find of what they look finished. Note: I make the plastic insert by injection moulding it here. Didn't have a 3D printer when I started making these.

For wallets you asked - What oz / mm thickness do you like to use for your wallets (and interiors?). Depends on the skin etc but mostly with glaze croc .8 to 1mm and the lining pieces get split to .5 to .6 as any less can often lead to holes in the valleys. Likewise the skived edges are normally not under .3mm at the very outside edge.

You asked - Do you often use something like veg tan to reinforce certain materials?  No as veg is susceptible to shrinking and and heat and moisture affects it too easily for that. With croc it is good practice to apply/glue a fabric to the back and leave compressed/flattened a little overnight or longer before applying it to the product being made.The croc skin has a tendency to go back into its original shape and without the fabric it can end up quite wobbly looking. The fabric also helps the croc be controlled when it curves over in products such as these clutch bags in progress.

[JC2019]

11 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

For splitting it depends on what skin type and even the tanner whether it is glazed or not what product is required and many other factors. Skiving is also normal and the method depends on what is being done. Sometimes by hand sometimes sanding and often a bell knife skiver is used. This below spliiter I have modified mostly for backstrap work on belts and has adjustable spacing rollers to do that work.

This pic shows how it works

The now split backstrap. This can also be done with a sanding machine.

This sanding machine below can be used for the backstrap work but is also can be used for thinning belly skin and leather etc. Here I am using to break the tightness on glazed skin before skiving the edges on some bangles I make.

Here the bell knife skiving is done

What it looks like after the centre seam is stitched

What a few look like prior to having the edges folded.

Lousy pic but that's all I could find of what they look finished. Note: I make the plastic insert by injection moulding it here. Didn't have a 3D printer when I started making these.

For wallets you asked - What oz / mm thickness do you like to use for your wallets (and interiors?). Depends on the skin etc but mostly with glaze croc .8 to 1mm and the lining pieces get split to .5 to .6 as any less can often lead to holes in the valleys. Likewise the skived edges are normally not under .3mm at the very outside edge.

You asked - Do you often use something like veg tan to reinforce certain materials?  No as veg is susceptible to shrinking and and heat and moisture affects it too easily for that. With croc it is good practice to apply/glue a fabric to the back and leave compressed/flattened a little overnight or longer before applying it to the product being made.The croc skin has a tendency to go back into its original shape and without the fabric it can end up quite wobbly looking. The fabric also helps the croc be controlled when it curves over in products such as these clutch bags in progress.

Thanks for the great explanation. What fabrics do you find works for reinforcing the wallets. I just put an order in for a fabrics swatch book used by fashion designers which will give me a taste for various materials. Sadly leather is not covered.

Edited April 30, 2019 by JC2019

[RockyAussie]

24 minutes ago, JC2019 said:

Thanks for the great explanation. What fabrics do you find works for reinforcing the wallets. I just put an order in for a fabrics swatch book used by fashion designers which will give me a taste for various materials. Sadly leather is not covered.

For reinforcing fabric an open weave cotton drill or any thing that holds contact glue well and resists pulling out of shape. I have used interfacing on some things as well ...depends on the product and the expected pressures on how you would expect it to be used. Some products like some purses and bags are further backed up with foams. For fabric linings and such check out the TABRU range in Italy as that is where we get a lot of the fabrics we use. http://www.tabru.com/

[mikesc]

I just put an order in for a fabrics swatch book used by fashion designers which will give me a taste for various materials. Sadly leather is not covered.

Most "fashion designers" do not actually understand fabric, let alone leather, they rely upon the artisans "to make it work"..and when , after much work by the artisans "it works, either in fabric or leather" the credit goes to the "fashion designer", the artisan is "hidden under the carpet"..You'll learn far more from most artisans working " in fashion", than you will from 99% of fashion designers..even the "couture names"..

One learns by doing, and watching ( others, ( and oneself ) whose work brings their experience to the atelier / table ) and especially "seeing" ( even "seeing" one's own work and processes ) understand what you are doing, why you are doing it, and what you wish to achieve..Will help you understand how to achieve it.

Head, hands and heart..

There are no "short cuts" , but there are techniques, some of which are learned through experience, others can give you the benefit of theirs, and intuitive leaps.

Take your time..use it wisely..do not waste it, ( often teaching or explaining to others what you have learned, will help you yourself ) it is all that you have, from the moment your are born and even before..

[magelet]

On 4/25/2019 at 9:44 PM, JC2019 said:

Hi all, new here.  I've been starting to research and I was wondering if anyone here has had more "formal" training? What did you learn and how long was it for? What was the cost (if any)? Would you recommend it? 

What do courses typically cost? I am in the bay area if you could recommend anything. I've found a few classes that cost  $3k+ around me.

Thanks

Hiya, also from the Bay Area here.

Last year I temporarily (~3 mo, not a real apprenticeship) moved to Texas to train in an armorsmith atelier and was blown away by the possibilities when you're able to interact with someone who really knows the craft you want to pursue -- so would absolutely recommend getting mentored in some kind of arrangement that fits you. This instance was a trade (i.e. unpaid on both sides) where I was did minor consulting* on some CNC fab stuff and also I made lots of small pieces (probably 30 or so individual prêt-à-porter pieces**) that were sold in the shop (although the atelier was funded primarily by custom commissions).

I've taken a few ad-hoc evening classes at Amblard (not her full program, and I don't want to specialize in soft leather anyway), but the most useful class I took was a 2-day hard leather intensive at the Crucible where I filled out some gaps in my knowledge with basic projects. The final project was completely freeform; I had a very clear idea in my mind (and had failed at one attempt already), but having the instructor basically consult on how to construct it caused that piece to turn out stunningly. That class is really what started me off, after years of off-and-on trying to construct various pieces and failing miserably.

I'm now at the point where executing and repetition are the most helpful for my technique, but couldn't have gotten here without the aforementioned foundational experiences.

It's interesting how hard it is to package/disseminate some forms of knowledge. I'm an autodidact in a lot of things but leathercraft has been one of the most arcane things I've ever studied.

 

*(imo sadly not enough, we didn't have the right equipment on hand for it to be useful)

**these were the pieces I learned progressive technique on

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by magelet