Thread tension and twisting

[Constabulary]

Okay, good to know you are aware of it, so no worries and no offense  But honestly a size 20 thread is what is the max. for most medium duty / upholstery type sewing machines in the leather trade and you try to run it through a tiny domestic machine - that does not make much sense. Its not just the thread - the whole machine is not designed for this type of thread (or work) including the thread path, tension unit , needle plate and hook. I basically understand when you want to find out the max capacity of your machine (we all want to know the max. cap. of our machines) but I honestly think this experiment with a domestic machine (Singer 201 I guess) is a bit over the top.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Constabulary

[kgg]

12 hours ago, dikman said:

kgg, I remember your original design because it got me started! Have you posted photos of the final design?

I am hoping maybe sometime this weekend to get a couple of photos my my newer design and post them. It is going to mainly depend on the weather and how sore I am. In the process of clearly and levelling a small 300 ft x 600 ft piece of my property that is forested with 60' trees and rock for dog training.

I think as far as that the thread popping out of the tensioner this maybe more to due with the thread being loose with the only resistance to the thread being as it rubs along the side of the top body of the machine. Originally the thread would have been on a small wooden domestic size spool setting vertically on a felt pad on top of the machine, giving the thread some resistance as it was pulled off and spun the spool. Adding a second tensioner I think is providing back tension helping to keep the thread stretched to prevent spring back.

These little domestic machines can surprise you as to what they are capable of and like Gymnast I have pushed some of the old Singers way pass their intended use with V92 thread. When any machine is pushed to the limit everything has to be just right, top and bottom thread tension, timing etc.

For my purposes a good bonded polyester is the way to go but I don't always like/want to purchase 1 lb spools in various colours that may not get readily used and just gather dust.

So for me I am always interested in seeing all information / discussion on thread, thread sizes, thread paths, thread problems, thread manufacturers, thread reviews, problem solutions, videos, pictures, etc it always catches my attention.

kgg

 

 

[mikesc]

Twisty metallic threads benefit from being fed through a piece of polystyrene before they get to the machines thread guides..Thread a standard hand sewing needle with your thread as it comes off the spool, pierce it through a piece of scrap polystyrene, small block , 5cm x 5cm and 2cm thick will do, then feed the thread which comes out of the other side of the polystyrene block along the thread path in the usual manner..The polystyrene will get pulled against the first thread guide ( usually a vertical polished bar ) and will "stay" ( if it doesn't, rig something up so that it does, otherwise it will get pulled along until it does, probably at the tension discs, will still work, but will be distracting ) there with the thread running through it..You'll probably need to adjust your tension after adding this as the "drag" ( tension ) will be increased even before it gets to the tension discs.

Metallic threads are the absolute worst for twisting and kinking..the above might work for your problem..

HTH :)

[nylonRigging]

13 hours ago, Gymnast said:

Thanks for your nice replies kgg, dikman and nylonRigging. I hope the video will help you. I should have some of the nylon thread anyway, and then I may taste some of your more severe problems with it.

I think, that all manufacturers of thread try to make the thread come off the end of the spool without internal twisting (moment) forces in the thread. But perhaps these manufacturers can vary on their quality in this regard. And perhaps even worse, that their twisting from spool vary. Anyway you should have the possiblity to actively do something about it in how your thread passes your machine and other things on its way.

The Nylons are just bad when you get down to the last 20% on the cones . but I don't know what else can be done ? , Big thread cord is not to bad, but small #69 nylon can get pretty Pig-tail in the bottom end of the rolls .I am sure the Thread manufactoring have done studies and even hold propritary knowledge on the science of making and twist and rolling miles of thread to Cones .

Nylon is strong and high abrasion resisteance but bad part is it holds a ' thread Memory ' , it holds on to in the tail-end of the Rolls . It something that is still usable and you (live with) sew with it . But it is definitely Not as sweet on the bobbin and needle as when you throw on a brand new spool .

Also.. all Threads are not created equal . 2 identicle thread may be the same as far as maunufactured same #size and material . But I find a big difference in the smoothness/difference of some, and you can feel the differences when pulling threw the tension disks . You can feel a tiny subtle grittyness with one, but another color and manufactures cone of same #size,  will be smooth as butter .

.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by nylonRigging

[mikesc]

I just realised looking at this "thread" ( s'cuse the unavoidable pun ) again..I forgot to say..I know that the threads being referred to here are nylon and polyester, my comment about metallics is "in case it helps anyone to try that method" with nylon or polyester..I have a 201 ( treadle ) amongst my "stable" of machines, but it is behind a load of things that I'm not scheduled to move until next week, so cant test the possibility myself to see if it helps any..Just throwing the idea out there..

Agree totally, all threads are not created equal..some ( even in the same colour batch , from the same manufacturer ) are not quite the same as others, sometimes you just give up and give them to the cat to play with, or use them to prevent the birds eating the seeds..Things to do with totally uncooperative thread .

[Gymnast]

5 hours ago, mikesc said:

pierce it through a piece of scrap polystyrene, small block , 5cm x 5cm and 2cm thick

Thanks for your reply, Mikesc. I am not quite sure how you mean here. Do you drill a Ø1 mm hole in the block? Is it a solid block or is it foam based polystyrene? Foam based can be extruded (XPS) or expanded (EPS). Expanded foam is most used and cheapest - I guess that is what you mean.

[Gymnast]

Do you always see the thread comming off the spool clockwise, when you look Down on it? They do on my spools.

[mikesc]

Expanded foam ( EPS ) the kind used in packaging and insulation..Yes
Drill hole..no..

Just thread a hand sewing needle and push it into and straight through the block of polystyrene..out of the other side..then un-thread the nylon from the needle, and leave the polystyrene stuck on the thread, take the end of the thread that you just pushed through and un-threaded and continue threading your machine with it, as if the polystyrene block was not there ..When the machine begins pulling on the thread to sew, the polystyrened block will get pulled along towards the first thread guide, it will bang up against it, it will stop there, ( if it doesn't , use some duct tape to secure it to the machine, the important thing is that the thread gets pulled through it as close as possible to the last thread guide before tension discs ) the thread will continue being pulled through it by the machine..This is how one removes the twists and kinks in metallic thread..Even on industrial machines like the old singers with ZIG-ZAG and variable bight, or the singer lighter weight industrials like my Singer 33U that are used for "free-form" embroidery..


Even a polystyrene packaging "peanut" will work if used with thin thread.

Edited May 10, 2019 by mikesc

[Gymnast]

14 hours ago, Constabulary said:

I guess you run an (probably oversized?) (bonded nylon?) thread through a vintage domestic machine and you are not using a proper thread stand - rule of thumb on this regard (as far as I recall): The position of the guide hole in the boom of the thread stand should be at approx twice the height of the thread spool (or more) and centered directly above the spool.

Sorry - I may not have been accurate here. 1:40 into the video I reveal the thread to be a tex 140 polyester thread. It is infact a tex 135. It is a Serafil 20 from Amann. And I think you got it in your second reply "size 20 thread". There might be a guide to the position of the thread guide over the spool. But in my experience it do not matter that much. It matters much more how the machine makes twisting back to the spool.

14 hours ago, Constabulary said:

F.i. the Singer 111 has several thread guides / guide holes for "untwisting" thread - and that's what they are meant for!

Yes - the possibility is there with a row of guide holes. You can go clockwise around or anticlockwise. I did however Watch some manuals and videos for the use of them, at they may adwise only clockwise around, and this may be wrong in most cases. I noticed that for the Juki LU 1508.

3 hours ago, nylonRigging said:

The Nylons are just bad when you get down to the last 20% on the cones . but I don't know what else can be done ? , Big thread cord is not to bad, but small #69 nylon can get pretty Pig-tail in the bottom end of the rolls

I have to asume, that the tread comes off the spool clockwise. Then the Z-twisting will be stronger after it comes off and off the small diameter of spool. In my video i show how ordinary thread guides and tensioners will make this twisting near the spool even worse. It will also make the Z-twisting stronger near the spool. The only way to make relief for that is to bring the thread anticlockwise around something on its way. It could be a piece of metal with a row of 4 holes. Or a steel thread parallel to the thread for some distance. That is my adwise here.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Gymnast
error

[Bert51]

Some time back when I was have problems winding bobbins, I found this gem from gottaknow,

"For example, if the height of the cone is 8", the first loop the thread passes through should be 20" from the base where the cone sits. "
 

And I leave all my machines setup this way and have no problems to speak of.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Bert51