Any way to pull dye OUT of leather?

[Toddo]

I got a project going and I decided to use Fiebings Pro Dye/oil dye according to the Weaver Leathercraft dude on YouTube. When I saw that you could make multiple passes with the oil dye without the leather darkening with each pass I says to myself that's the stuff for me. So I used 50/50 light brown and mahogany on the first four pieces of my project and then antiqued with Fiebings antique gel and the pieces turned out beautiful.  Another part of my project includes a wet molded knife sheath that is two parts sewn together. The parts are small so I decided to dip-die them. The Weaver Leathercraft dude said oil dye stays a consistent color no matter what right? So there should be no problem with the dip dye even though I used a sponge just on the top surface of the other four pieces. Mistake. The two knife sheath pieces are significantly darker than the pieces that I sponge wiped with the dye. Is there any way to lighten dye after it's been applied? The only thing I've tried so far is that I soaked the front piece with hot water hoping it would wash some of the dye out. It is now drying out. I'll see in a day or two if that helped. What about soaking the pieces in a 50/50 solution of bleach and water?

I bought a single shoulder for the project and it's coming down to the wire on having just enough leather to complete the project. I really don't have enough leather to remake the knife sheath parts. I really hope there is  way to salvage the parts. My wet molded front piece came out so awesome it looks like it was molded in a factory. I hate to loose that piece!

[Bob Blea]

Unfortunately I don't think there is a good way to do this.  I was always taught that dye is pretty permanent stuff and that it's always possible to make colors darker but not lighter.

So my 2 cents worth, you are left with only a few options.  You could make the rest of your piece darker to match the knife sheath.  Or you could someone make the knife sheath being darker some sort of highlight of your overall design.  A third option would be to use acrylics to mask or cover up the dye job and make the sheath color more like the rest of the project.  The problem with using acrylics is that they are UV resistant and will maintain the same color over time while the veg tan leather of the rest of the project will naturally darken over time.

Sorry I don't have a better suggestion for you.

Bob

[TargetRockLeather]

1 hour ago, Toddo said:

What about soaking the pieces in a 50/50 solution of bleach and water?

I think bleach would ruin the leather and still not get you back to the color you want. As an experiment , I submerged a piece of dip-dyed leather into denatured alcohol (since the dye is alcohol based). It didn't lighten the leather at all, but it did make the leather a blotchy mess. I think that any attempt to remove dye will have similar results.

21 minutes ago, Bob Blea said:

make the knife sheath being darker some sort of highlight of your overall design

Bob's suggestion is the one I would use. No one will ever know that you didn't color it that way on purpose.

I've found that dip-dying works well, but you have to be careful. Any edges/cuts will take the dye deeper than the rest of the piece if you leave it in the dye for more than an instant. That makes the edges darker than the rest of the piece. I think that's why your small pieces came out darker than the rest. Also, if you dip a piece that has the stitch holes punched already, you'll end up with a dark stripe where the holes are. All of those holes will let more dye penetrate deeper. Made that mistake once myself, but I decided to pass it off as an interesting "effect".

[Toddo]

39 minutes ago, TargetRockLeather said:

I think bleach would ruin the leather and still not get you back to the color you want. As an experiment , I submerged a piece of dip-dyed leather into denatured alcohol (since the dye is alcohol based). It didn't lighten the leather at all, but it did make the leather a blotchy mess. I think that any attempt to remove dye will have similar results.

Bob's suggestion is the one I would use. No one will ever know that you didn't color it that way on purpose.

I've found that dip-dying works well, but you have to be careful. Any edges/cuts will take the dye deeper than the rest of the piece if you leave it in the dye for more than an instant. That makes the edges darker than the rest of the piece. I think that's why your small pieces came out darker than the rest. Also, if you dip a piece that has the stitch holes punched already, you'll end up with a dark stripe where the holes are. All of those holes will let more dye penetrate deeper. Made that mistake once myself, but I decided to pass it off as an interesting "effect".

Ahh thanks for the advice yall. I was just looking at 8.5"x11" single cut pieces of veg tan leather on Ebay for like $10 w/free shipping. I could remake the two pieces without much expense and re-do them if I decide I don't wanna use the pieces.

As a matter of  coincidence, I too prepunched holes in the first 4 other pieces I mentioned before I dyed them and noticed darker areas on the edges where the dye soaked deeper into the leather through the holes like you said. But it actually looks pretty cool and could easily be an "on purpose" effect ha. And the pieces were not even dip dyed. Just sponge dyed and dye still soaked in through the punch holes quite a bit.

Here's the piece with the dark edges. This is gonna be a side panel of a black powder trail bag. The dark edges make it look rustic and cool even though it was done by accident. I won't be doing that again. All dying done before holes are punched.

(This is actually a 3 piece construction. Front and back leather with a 1/16" acrylic board sewn in between to keep the sides of the bag rigid. The interior/back side is lined with black felt. A lot of firsts on this project. Never saddled stiched  or done any of this before)

[fredk]

Try washing it down with cellulose thinners

[Hildebrand]

Be aware that the piece of leather you are looking at on eBay may or may not die the same as your existing shoulder.  It's tough to match die on different pieces of leather.

Todd

[TargetRockLeather]

On 5/28/2019 at 6:49 PM, Toddo said:

Here's the piece with the dark edges. This is gonna be a side panel of a black powder trail bag. The dark edges make it look rustic and cool even though it was done by accident. I won't be doing that again. All dying done before holes are punched.

Yep, that's the "effect" I was talking about. This is what mine looks like:

[wizard of tragacanth]

I always used to think that I should strive for uniformity of color... makes it look more "professional" or "store bought".  But, hey, it is hand made!  I now think that the non-uniformity gives the piece more dimension.  

Of course, this would vary depending on the type of project, one may call for uniformity, another, not.

[darkmatter35]

If you plan on doing this for a while try airbrushing the Fiebings oil dye. I've had nice results. 

John 

 

[wizard of tragacanth]

4 hours ago, darkmatter35 said:

If you plan on doing this for a while try airbrushing the Fiebings oil dye. I've had nice results. 

John 

 

Do you thin it first?

[fredk]

10 minutes ago, wizard of tragacanth said:

Do you thin it first?

I thin regular Fiebings acrylic dye with meths & water for spraying

[darkmatter35]

I use an air brush with a .5mm needle which is not as finicky about the paint consistency as a gun with a smaller tip needle. I do not thin Pro Oil Dye. Make sure you run the dye through a filter to remove any large chunks in the dye bottle. That's all that's to it.

John

[Toddo]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:30 PM, TargetRockLeather said:

Yep, that's the "effect" I was talking about. This is what mine looks like:

Nice looking sheath. I like the dye effect around the edges!

I went ahead and ordered a new piece of leather to make a new sheath so I experimented with the old sheath. I soaked it in 50/50 bleach and water for around 5 minutes or so. It definitely pulled dye out of the leather as the solution was full of dye after 5  minutes. It turned out a splotchy mess like yours did with denatured alcohol.

It looks like it was regurgitated by a fish then washed up on the beach

It's extremely dry now and practically brittle. It feels like if you tried to bend it, it would like actually break. The bleach totally dried the leather out to the max. It needs to be reconditioned. I think I'll go ahead and make a sheath out of it for one of my old lock blade knives.

[Toddo]

On 5/30/2019 at 1:42 AM, wizard of tragacanth said:

I always used to think that I should strive for uniformity of color... makes it look more "professional" or "store bought".  But, hey, it is hand made!  I now think that the non-uniformity gives the piece more dimension.  

Of course, this would vary depending on the type of project, one may call for uniformity, another, not.

I totally agree.

[Toddo]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:19 PM, Hildebrand said:

Be aware that the piece of leather you are looking at on eBay may or may not die the same as your existing shoulder.  It's tough to match die on different pieces of leather.

Todd

That did cross my mind. The knife sheath is a small piece of the bag as a whole and will be sewn into the interior of the bag so a slight color variation on that piece will not be to critical in this instance.

[Toddo]

17 hours ago, darkmatter35 said:

If you plan on doing this for a while try airbrushing the Fiebings oil dye. I've had nice results. 

John 

 

I may try that one some time when I get more completed projects under my belt and want to try for something more refined looking.

[Rockoboy]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 2:16 PM, Toddo said:

It's extremely dry now and practically brittle.

I have never tried bleach on leather, but I have noticed after using denatured alcohol (methylated spirits), a coat of neatsfoot oil can help put some of the oils back into the leather and increase flexibility. Don't go overboard with the NFO or you could end up with a soggy mess that will not be any good for anything.

[TargetRockLeather]

8 hours ago, Rockoboy said:

I have never tried bleach on leather, but I have noticed after using denatured alcohol (methylated spirits), a coat of neatsfoot oil can help put some of the oils back into the leather and increase flexibility. Don't go overboard with the NFO or you could end up with a soggy mess that will not be any good for anything.

I never tried bleach either, but my thought was that bleach might damage the leather,  not just dry it out. Have you ever seen bleach used to clean something that was stitched with cotton thread? The thread can literally disintegrate. Happened to me on some vinyl boat seats. The seats came out nice and clean, then eventually fell apart. I'm wondering if leather might react similarly since it is essentially a natural fiber. Even if the NFO makes it soft again, I'm not sure if it would be structurally intact.

Having said that, you're absolutely right; neatsfoot oil is the best way that I know of to rejuvenate stiff/dried out leather.

[Toddo]

Just for an update. So I got the piece of leather from Ebay to make the new sheath and the Ebay piece looked white compared to my original single shoulder leather. I went ahead and made the sheath outta the new white looking leather thinking that now this one is gonna turn out lighter than the side panel pieces because of how white the leather looked. So I surfaced sponged the dye on front and back (because the back side of the flap will be seen when opened) with the fiebings pro dye. And guess what. It came out not lighter than the other sheath I totally submersed in dye, but just as dark some how. Go figure. I only dyed the front side of the side panel pieces and left the backs undyed. I guess dyeing the back side of leather makes the front side look darker somehow? I don't really get it. After applying antique on the new piece it even actually looks a bit darker than the first sheath that I was so worried about being to dark. I coulda just gone ahead with the first sheath. Phsst. Lessons learned.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Toddo

[TargetRockLeather]

I think the darker color has more to do with the texture of the leather than the shade/color of it before you dye it. The more porous the leather, the more dye it will absorb. The texture and smoothness/porosity will vary from one piece of leather to the next. It's not something you can control. That's why you should try to cut all of the pieces from the same piece of leather. I don't think dying the back made the front darker unless you completely saturated the back.

You mentioned applying antique. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish or how it turned out. If the project came out too dark then perhaps you could have applied a "resist" layer before the antiquing step. The resist will allow the antiquing to darken some of the details (tooling cuts, stamping etc) without darkening the overall project.

[Toddo]

18 hours ago, TargetRockLeather said:

I think the darker color has more to do with the texture of the leather than the shade/color of it before you dye it. The more porous the leather, the more dye it will absorb. The texture and smoothness/porosity will vary from one piece of leather to the next. It's not something you can control. That's why you should try to cut all of the pieces from the same piece of leather. I don't think dying the back made the front darker unless you completely saturated the back.

You mentioned applying antique. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish or how it turned out. If the project came out too dark then perhaps you could have applied a "resist" layer before the antiquing step. The resist will allow the antiquing to darken some of the details (tooling cuts, stamping etc) without darkening the overall project.

Yeah the darkness probably has more to do with the saturation of the leather.

As far as the antiquing, basically I was just mimicking the Weaver Leathercraft guy at this YouTube video: However, I do realize he has tooling in his piece that he wanted to highlight. I gotta say though I thought the antiquing on my bag side panels made it look better even though there was no tooling.

 

This is my newly molded sheath front-piece that has not been antiqued on top of the bag side panel.  This new piece was sponge wiped. It is also the replacement piece I got off Ebay that was very white looking before I dyed it. Without the antique on it, the color is really not that far off from the side panel color. It's totally acceptable:

 

Here's the sheath back-piece along side the front piece. The back piece was sponge wiped and has been antiqued. It is darker than the front-piece. I have enough left from the Ebay piece to make one more back-piece so what I'm gonna do is, make a new back piece,  sponge wipe it, and not antique it so it matches the front-piece and I think that will be fine:

 

Thanks for the tip on the resist. I will be tooling a huge design on the front panel of the bag. I planned on dyeing over top of the tooling then antiquing over top of that with no resist like the Weaver guy in the YouTube video. I think I will use resist on my next bag. What resist do you suggest that doesn't streak or do anything weird?

 

[TargetRockLeather]

First thing I would do is TRY it on a few pieces of scrap first. Don't make your first attempt on something you care about. Do some quick tooling on a scrap and try it with and without resist. In my personal experience, using antique without any resist just makes the whole thing darker without getting decent contrast in the tooled areas. I've seen Chuck's videos too and I know he shows using antique without resist and it seems to work for him. I tried it and wasn't happy with the results. That's why I'm saying to try it first.

I've seen Eco Flo Super Shene recommended and I've tried that. It works "ok". Any top coat type finish that seals the leather will probably work. You just want to be able to wipe off the antique gel or paste without it making the project darker. Where I seem to run into trouble is when I try to apply a top coat AFTER the antiquing. It seems to smear the antiquing even after the paste has dried. Hopefully others will chime in with their recommendations as I still don't have a process I'm totally happy with.

[Bob Blea]

I sometimes antique without using a resist and I completely agree with @TargetRockLeatherabout experimenting first.  It's not easy to get a good even result.  You will want to have some unscented baby wipes (that's really what I use) handy as they are really good at removing unwanted antique and evening out the finish.  Without a resist it is hard to get an even coating (especially on untooled smooth areas) but the baby wipes will remove the excess, even if it has dried quite a bit, and make your surface much more even.

For resists I've never been happy with Super Shene or Satin Shene as resists.  I found I needed to use a lot of coats and still had problems with it not resisting.  I use Wyo Sheen (sold by Barry King) which is a lacquer based resist that is supposed to be the same thing as the old NeatLac was.  It works well but I still need at least two thin coats for a good resist layer.  And again I always have the baby wipes handy to clean up and make things even if there is any streaking.

As for top coats, I don't think there is any top coat that doesn't take some of the antique off when you rub it on.  A lot of people use Tan Kote as a final finish and it does take some of the antique off.  The only solution I've found is to spray a top coat on that I don't rub at all.  I use a spray on acrylic made for spraying over pastel chalk artwork, but some people water down Resolene and spray it on with an airbrush.

[TargetRockLeather]

@Bob Blea Interesting idea to use the baby wipes. I'll have to try that some time. I have tried spray on finish and it does seem to be the best way to avoid streaking/smearing on top of antiquing. I used Saddle Lac and that seems to work well. The thing I don't like about Saddle Lac is that it seals the leather completely which prevents conditioners such as neatsfoot oil from penetrating. I would prefer if years down the line someone will be able to oil the leather. Also it makes the piece look like plastic which isn't desirable in my opinion. I wonder if your approach works better.

[Toddo]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:24 AM, TargetRockLeather said:

First thing I would do is TRY it on a few pieces of scrap first. Don't make your first attempt on something you care about. Do some quick tooling on a scrap and try it with and without resist. In my personal experience, using antique without any resist just makes the whole thing darker without getting decent contrast in the tooled areas. I've seen Chuck's videos too and I know he shows using antique without resist and it seems to work for him. I tried it and wasn't happy with the results. That's why I'm saying to try it first.

I've seen Eco Flo Super Shene recommended and I've tried that. It works "ok". Any top coat type finish that seals the leather will probably work. You just want to be able to wipe off the antique gel or paste without it making the project darker. Where I seem to run into trouble is when I try to apply a top coat AFTER the antiquing. It seems to smear the antiquing even after the paste has dried. Hopefully others will chime in with their recommendations as I still don't have a process I'm totally happy with.

 

On 6/7/2019 at 1:37 PM, Bob Blea said:

I sometimes antique without using a resist and I completely agree with @TargetRockLeatherabout experimenting first.  It's not easy to get a good even result.  You will want to have some unscented baby wipes (that's really what I use) handy as they are really good at removing unwanted antique and evening out the finish.  Without a resist it is hard to get an even coating (especially on untooled smooth areas) but the baby wipes will remove the excess, even if it has dried quite a bit, and make your surface much more even.

For resists I've never been happy with Super Shene or Satin Shene as resists.  I found I needed to use a lot of coats and still had problems with it not resisting.  I use Wyo Sheen (sold by Barry King) which is a lacquer based resist that is supposed to be the same thing as the old NeatLac was.  It works well but I still need at least two thin coats for a good resist layer.  And again I always have the baby wipes handy to clean up and make things even if there is any streaking.

As for top coats, I don't think there is any top coat that doesn't take some of the antique off when you rub it on.  A lot of people use Tan Kote as a final finish and it does take some of the antique off.  The only solution I've found is to spray a top coat on that I don't rub at all.  I use a spray on acrylic made for spraying over pastel chalk artwork, but some people water down Resolene and spray it on with an airbrush.

Lots of good info to think about. Thanks for the input.