Please give your opinion on my sewing machine purchase

[Louiesdad]

 

 

I am buying a sewing machine to use for leather and heavy tarping work.  I want a bullet proof machine and it will be well maintained.

What do you think of these and my choice?

I have offers on an Adler 205 370 Juki 441 Cowboy 4500 and Cobra 4P all are 2nd hand with the clones having no warranties because I am second owner.

The Adler is 35, the Japan/Juki is 39 cowboy 4500 and cobra 4p  are in 23-25 area. The Adler has log book showing 70 hrs use before taken out of service, the Juki was run for 6 mos in a limited production application and has maintenance records also. The clones are newer very little or no use by their owners.

All machines have 6500 or 7500 watt 110V servo mtrs, speed reduction capabilities, offset stands, walking feet, accessory lights ect, (very similar setups on all) plus both the Adler and Juki come with 12 month warranties. 

I am driving to pickup anyone, I buy.

I am leaning towards buying the Adler or Juki for their reputation and durability. Any valid reason to buy a clone when these are in my range?

About me:  I would buy used Snap-On tools before I would buy new craftsman/husky type stuff.  If there were a bullet proof, currently made in USA machine, I would entertain buying one.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Louiesdad
mispelling

[Hildebrand]

I guess my suggestion would be to look at what is available for service after the sale.  I would want to make sure I was saving a considerable amount if I was giving up service at the time of and after the sale.  Not sure about the Adler and Juki but both the Cowboy and Cobra have dealers who are sponsors on here and have great reputations for helping with and after the sale.

Todd

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Louiesdad said:

If there were a bullet proof, currently made in USA machine, I would entertain buying one.

Have you looked into the Made in the USA Campbell Randal Lockstitch, or Union Lockstitch machines? They are under the auspices of the Campbell-Randall Company, in Texas. Both use a needle and awl with a jump foot. These are leather sewing machines only.

[Louiesdad]

4 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Have you looked into the Made in the USA Campbell Randal Lockstitch, or Union Lockstitch machines? They are under the auspices of the Campbell-Randall Company, in Texas. Both use a needle and awl with a jump foot. These are leather sewing machines only.

I need for heavy sail canvas, winter cover canvas, and leather. They do sell Juki though.

[Louiesdad]

14 minutes ago, Hildebrand said:

I guess my suggestion would be to look at what is available for service after the sale.  I would want to make sure I was saving a considerable amount if I was giving up service at the time of and after the sale.  Not sure about the Adler and Juki but both the Cowboy and Cobra have dealers who are sponsors on here and have great reputations for helping with and after the sale.

Todd

Thought about that, I get factory service from either company, while under warranty. Nothing from the cobra or cowboy because they are "like new" 2nd hand.

 

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Louiesdad said:

I am buying a sewing machine to use for leather and heavy tarping work.  I want a bullet proof machine

Canvas sewing machines are different than leather sewing machines. Ignore my mention of needle and awl machines. Bullet proof machinery is hard to find. but I would say that the closest I know of are the Adler ECO and Classic series machines sold by authorized Adler USA dealers (like Weaver Leather). They make flatbed, long body and cylinder arm machines with single or double needles, some with automatic trimmers and backtacking. These are regarded as the creme of the crop in some circles. Enter here and look around!

[Cumberland Highpower]

I'd go for the Juki.

The adler 205 is good as well, but they had 2 different throat depths. (Weaver sold both the grey shallow and later deeper throat model before they were discontinued). 

I've used both and actually prefer the Juki, but not by a huge margin. It may make a difference for canvas/tarp work.   I would NOT buy any Chinese clone.  If nothing else,  they'd be harder to get rid of when you dont want it..... If you want to compare tools it's like comparing SK to...Harbor Freight.

Those Adler ECO referenced above are pretty neat and have lots of good depth/clearance.  They also have a needle Pos. System...But are like 7-8k new and Kinda hard to justify unless you plan to run it all day every day.

I believe the Juki 441 is still made, and at least the last new one I saw was made in Japan. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Cumberland Highpower

[cdthayer]

32 minutes ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

The adler 205 is good as well, but they had 2 different throat depths. (Weaver sold both the grey shallow and later deeper throat model before they were discontinued). 

Can you expand on that a little for me? You're saying that the Adler 205-370 came out in two different throat depths?

CD in Oklahoma

[kgg]

Either the Alder or Juki I think would be great choices both have solid, precision made machines and reputations to match. If it was me with both machines in similar condition and could do what I wanted / needed I would probably choose the Juki 441 for cost and availability of replacement parts as well as accessories like binders / folders etc. Everyone seems to make items based around the Juki machines and copy their sewing machines regardless of class of machine. Another major point for me would be the factory service during the machines warranty period which you stated is available from both Alder and Juki that is just icing on the cake.

4 hours ago, Louiesdad said:

About me:  I would buy used Snap-On tools before I would buy new craftsman/husky type stuff. 

I would consider either the Alder or the Juki to be like the Snap-On tools.

1 hour ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

I would NOT buy any Chinese clone.  If nothing else,  they'd be harder to get rid of when you dont want it.....

I would buy an older brand name machine (Alder, Juki, Singer, Pfaff ) any day over buying a new clone. Resale value is always going to be a consideration and 5/10/15 years down the road when your needs / wants change either the Alder or Juki will sell faster for more money then a similar class clone. The list of available clones is endless with the quality of some clones being better then others. Will parts even be available for some of the clones in 15 / 20 years down the road, I guess only time will tell.

4 hours ago, Louiesdad said:

If there were a bullet proof, currently made in USA machine, I would entertain buying one.

It is sad that there are no North American made machines to choose from in this class of machine.

kgg

 

 

[brmax]

We really might be talking two distinctly different needs with regards to leather and canvas heavy tarps. 

Can you help with your 90% of the time tarp weight and a thread you want or need, appreciate it.  With that I do understand the brief need of cylinder arm requirement! in canvas work. 

In all this branding hoopla, I understand kgg. Theres just know way we can give holidays and benefits as we do, with the added hr, we have as a nation worked up to. 

Though these first brands mentioned weather copied early or late have proven  themselves. It doesn't come overnight, as any professional learns, and then gets relied on for. Whats this you say!

Its getting the task done under stress in situations with restrictions and being able to use experience ( yes experience matters ) to finalize the assigned or commissioned product goal on time.

Hey its Friday

See ya later man

Floyd

 

no offense intended: i run a cobra and juki but many sewing factories in china run Juki and DA

[Wizcrafts]

I also cannot imagine sewing tarps on a cylinder arm machine. I use a long body walking foot machine for that.

I own a CB4500, which is a 441 clone. It is too slow for tarps and awnings and very inconvienient for flat work. It also needs to be dumbed down to sue sew thin thread and needles and harness feet aren't ideal for canvas.

[cdthayer]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

needs to be dumbed down to sue thin thread

Now what in the world made you spell sew like that?

(I ask myself that every once in a while with some of the words that I use.)

CD in Oklahoma

[cdthayer]

I use a 1944 Singer 111W153 for tarp, awning, pool cover work.  (I nicknamed it “Ol Dirty” because the tarps that I work on (repairs) are always dirty.)  It’s a compound-feed machine without reverse.  I run Tex90 thread top and bottom, and the power stand that it runs in has a 3470 rpm clutch motor without speed reducer.  I seldom run it wide-open (the max speed of the 111W153 is 2900 rpm), but I can run some thread through it quick before I have to stop and reposition the work.

I had to resew three stitch lines on every piece of webbing reinforcement on a 30x60 used mesh pool cover once.  I blew the sand out of the hook area with my air compressor several times, and like to drown it in Lily White Sewing Machine Oil.  It’s amazing how much sand a mesh pool cover can have in it.

The sewing went fast, but the unfolding, repositioning, and refolding like to wore me out.

CD in Oklahoma

 

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, cdthayer said:

Now what in the world made you spell sew like that?

I was trying to answer the topic with only a few minutes left before I had to leave for work.

4 hours ago, cdthayer said:

I use a 1944 Singer 111W153 for tarp, awning, pool cover work.  (I nicknamed it “Ol Dirty” because the tarps that I work on (repairs) are always dirty.)  It’s a compound-feed machine without reverse.  I run Tex90 thread top and bottom, and the power stand that it runs in has a 3470 rpm clutch motor without speed reducer.  I seldom run it wide-open (the max speed of the 111W153 is 2900 rpm), but I can run some thread through it quick before I have to stop and reposition the work.

I had to resew three stitch lines on every piece of webbing reinforcement on a 30x60 used mesh pool cover once.  I blew the sand out of the hook area with my air compressor several times, and like to drown it in Lily White Sewing Machine Oil.  It’s amazing how much sand a mesh pool cover can have in it.

The sewing went fast, but the unfolding, repositioning, and refolding like to wore me out.

CD in Oklahoma

 

Now, that is SEWING! Kudos!

[mikesc]

Juki.

[nylonRigging]

4 hours ago, cdthayer said:

I use a 1944 Singer 111W153 for tarp, awning, pool cover work.  (I nicknamed it “Ol Dirty” because the tarps that I work on (repairs) are always dirty.)  It’s a compound-feed machine without reverse.  I run Tex90 thread top and bottom, and the power stand that it runs in has a 3470 rpm clutch motor without speed reducer.  I seldom run it wide-open (the max speed of the 111W153 is 2900 rpm), but I can run some thread through it quick before I have to stop and reposition the work.

I had to resew three stitch lines on every piece of webbing reinforcement on a 30x60 used mesh pool cover once.  I blew the sand out of the hook area with my air compressor several times, and like to drown it in Lily White Sewing Machine Oil.  It’s amazing how much sand a mesh pool cover can have in it.

The sewing went fast, but the unfolding, repositioning, and refolding like to wore me out.

CD in Oklahoma

 

-

You can't see me, ...but I am on the floor in the living room in-front of my PC. . ' Bowing Down ' , to you sir ..

A full size Pool Tarp on a 111 ... you are the man. .....LOL

.

[ljk]

I would consider the Singer 144w.  They were available in short and long arm version 20" and 30".  They have big bobbins,. high lift (1") and long

stitches.  I used a 12" version for years in my leather shop when my 206's reached capacity, we called it T-rex.  Most long arm

versions where used in factory settings thus heavy wear. Price for those run around $1500 with reverse about $2000.  I have

a source for a 144w305 a non factory machine in Colo.  The Consew 206 was available in 20" arm I consider it equal to any

euro machine especially the Seiko made versions.

[cdthayer]

12 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Now, that is SEWING! Kudos!

 

11 hours ago, nylonRigging said:

A full size Pool Tarp on a 111 ... you are the man. .....LOL

Thank you.  Resewing that pool cover was an interesting project.  The webbing was still good, and the mesh was still good, but all of the thread that stitched them together had failed or was failing.

My hard work only lasted a couple of years, we found out.  They told us that a whitetail doe deer decided to run across it one night, and before they finally got her out of the pool, she had torn it up beyond repair and they bought a new one.

CD in Oklahoma

 

[Louiesdad]

Someone suggested I also consider the new model hitech 205-370-40

 

Anyone use the cowboy 205 370 40?

[Cumberland Highpower]

CDTHAYER, The 205s did come in 2 different throat depths.  The earlier version was painted with grey hammer paint and the later deeper throat was painted white.  Vernon Weaver claimed that Weaver Leather pressured Adler to revise the 205 to make it deeper.  (Well who's to say if they did or didnt).   They sold them for a couple years until they were discontinued.   If you want a deep one I believe they were all made in the Czech Republic (White paint).   Probably changed castings when they moved production.

If you do allot of tarp work specifically you should look for a used pfaff or juki.  I've seen pfaff 145's quite cheap.  $200-400.  1245s seem to go around 500++Craigslist generally has a few.  Check auctions too.  www.auctionzip.com

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Cumberland Highpower

[cdthayer]

2 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

The 205s did come in 2 different throat depths. 

Thanks for that information.  It was news to me.  Both of my Adler 205s (Grey 205-64 and White 205-370) have the same throat distance of 12.5 inches.  If they were any longer, I couldn’t hand crank them with a steering wheel spinner knob.

On the suggested tarp-sewing machines, my days of sewing on big tarps are about over.  I can’t walk and carry weight much anymore, and the big tarps take a lot of repositioning to get everything to the needle.

CD in Oklahoma

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

Hello yes they did make the 16" version at the end. It's what they were selling at Weaver before the new ECOs... Here is a link.  They were 16" depth machines.

https://www.weaverleathersupply.com/catalog/item-detail/65-8080/weaver-205-sewing-machine-/pr_51532

[Louiesdad]

We ended up getting a very low use factory Juki TSC 441U, for our projects, it is on the way.  Thanks for all the input.

[kgg]

I think you made the right choice and should be pleased with it.

kgg