RockyAussie Report post Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Gymnast said: Are the tension discs different on the main tensioner? Yes they are. The thread runs around them 1 and 1/2 times and the barrel thing in the middle is restrained by a flat felt or leather washers on either side of it. The more the tension spring on it is tightened the harder it is for the barrel to spin. It used to be a common method of applying tension on the older machines before the came up with the more common modern tension discs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gymnast Report post Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, RockyAussie said: The thread runs around them 1 and 1/2 times and the barrel thing in the middle Thank you very much for explaining this to me. The video you found from Solar Leather do also have provide high quality instructions about the check spring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Gymnast said: Yes, it is some kind of illusion to me :). I think I watched 5 other videos on youtube regarding this subject now, and they all looks equal and as on your machine. They all seems to me like the thread do not go between the discs on the main top thread tensioner. So I hope I can learn something too. With the pretensioner Ryan in the video clearly indicates, that the thread must be pulled in between the discs. But he do not show the same regarding the main tensioner. Are the tension discs different on the main tensioner? Do the thread go around the discs near the outer perimeter of these discs? I normally see the thread commes in around the post, that may be only about 1/4" diameter, and I do not see this happen here. The Main tensioner consists of a wheel with two friction discs on either side. It is designed to spin and I read that some 441 clones include felt washers between the discs and wheel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said: If the check spring is not able to bottom out all the way to the stop bracket's lowest position, the coil spring that returns it must set be too light. There is a nut on the back of the housing where the check spring shaft is mounted. You'll have to wrangle a really narrow wrench behind there to loosen the nut, then turn the split screw until it pulls the check spring all the way down. Tighten up the locking nut and set the stop bracket as needed. Don't be afraid to try different angles to get more travel. What is happening is that the check spring tension seems to be too tight and the thread simply slides through. If I crank top tension down I may get some movement of the check spring but not full travel unless the top is set realy tight, then I end up with knots on the top of the single 5oz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 20, 2019 I did watch this very useful video put the check spring tension spring was properly engages as was the check spring on the hook. Thanks! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, RockyAussie said: I would consider opening up a slot in the middle foot (shown below) as you can see better and it makes the threading a whole lot easier. I use the front of the foot as a guide for following sharp curves. If anything, I'd cut an index mark dead center. Bob Edited July 20, 2019 by BDAZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted July 20, 2019 8 hours ago, Gymnast said: Yes, it is some kind of illusion to me :). I think I watched 5 other videos on youtube regarding this subject now, and they all looks equal and as on your machine. They all seems to me like the thread do not go between the discs on the main top thread tensioner. So I hope I can learn something too. With the pretensioner Ryan in the video clearly indicates, that the thread must be pulled in between the discs. But he do not show the same regarding the main tensioner. Are the tension discs different on the main tensioner? Do the thread go around the discs near the outer perimeter of these discs? I normally see the thread commes in around the post, that may be only about 1/4" diameter, and I do not see this happen here. On all of the 441 type machines, the bottom "disk" is really just a roller with raised edges. It is a carry over from the ancient 45k series that ran waxed linen thread. One winds the top thread around the roller disk between 1.5 and 2 turns. This gives some fine control over the upper tension. It gives the check spring a good back pressure to work off of. But, the bottom roller does not replace the top tension disks. It augments them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gymnast Report post Posted July 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said: But, the bottom roller does not replace the top tension disks. It augments them. Thank you Wiz, for explaining this to me and the historic background. I suppose you mean, that you still need a pretensioner with disks in order for the roller main tensioner to operate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) Speaking of check springs, I took off the front cover this morning and reduced the check spring tension spring tension (whew, that's a mouth full) by 50%-60%. Now I can reduce the top tension to the point where I can almost get knots on the bottom (never happened before) and I get full travel on the check spring with every stitch. Feels like I just bought a new machine!! Single layer 5-6 oz stitches with 138 and a 23 needle are perfect! No stitching trough the thread, all is good!! Thanks again to everyone who contributed to solving this problem. Last question would there be any advantage to cutting a couple of felt discs for the upper top tensioner? I have not fine tuned the upper tension yet, this is the first shot with the adjusted catch spring. The leather is exactly 2mm / 5oz. I just notice I need to back off the foot tension which I increased when the cover was off... Bob Edited July 20, 2019 by BDAZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted July 21, 2019 Yea Team! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimi Report post Posted July 21, 2019 15 hours ago, BDAZ said: Last question would there be any advantage to cutting a couple of felt discs for the upper top tensioner? No, because it is not a wheel, they are normal static disks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 21, 2019 Sorry, I was referring to the lower upper tensioner. I think someone had mentioned in another thread that most 441 type machines include felt washers between the metal discs and the roller wheel. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted July 21, 2019 6 hours ago, BDAZ said: Sorry, I was referring to the lower upper tensioner. I think someone had mentioned in another thread that most 441 type machines include felt washers between the metal discs and the roller wheel. Bob The lower roller doesn't move very much, nor very fast on these machines. As long as it isn't actually binding, leave it alone. If you do add a felt washer, make sure it doesn't interfere with the check spring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 21, 2019 Thanks! Not binding ...if it ain't broke..... Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted July 21, 2019 On 7/21/2019 at 2:55 AM, BDAZ said: Last question would there be any advantage to cutting a couple of felt discs for the upper top tensioner? I would be surprised if they were not there. Check the No 13 felts in this pdf pic extracted from a Cowboy manual Tension Post Components.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 21, 2019 Apparently they are not supplied with the 3200. I guess that's why they can sell them so cheap! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted July 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, BDAZ said: Apparently they are not supplied with the 3200. I guess that's why they can sell them so cheap! Bob Maybe the builders forgot the felt. Contact your nearest Cowboy dealer to see if they have pre-cut felt circles for the bottom roller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 22, 2019 Easy enough to punch out a couple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 22, 2019 Only felt I have is bright red, which I use for restoring '20s banjo cases. Probably now have the most stylish 3200 in the neighborhood! Haven't tested it yet but looks cool! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted July 22, 2019 2 hours ago, BDAZ said: Only felt I have is bright red, which I use for restoring '20s banjo cases. Probably now have the most stylish 3200 in the neighborhood! Haven't tested it yet but looks cool! Bob Hey Bob I don't know if it is normally done but I drop a few drops of oil on mine every 12 months or so and I would do it from the start myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bert51 Report post Posted July 22, 2019 May I ask if "Thread Oil" would work better on the felt them normal "Sewing Machine Oil"? Thanks, Bert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockyAussie Report post Posted July 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Bert51 said: May I ask if "Thread Oil" would work better on the felt them normal "Sewing Machine Oil"? Thanks, Bert. I don't know as I have never tried it . The sewing machine oil I use if it drips on the leather it dries without leaving any signs ...so I just stick with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CowboyBob Report post Posted July 22, 2019 10 hours ago, Wizcrafts said: Maybe the builders forgot the felt. Contact your nearest Cowboy dealer to see if they have pre-cut felt circles for the bottom roller. The 441's have 1-metal washer next to the felt on the spring side of the tension pushing against the roller.The CB3200 has a metal washer on either side of the roller.Both methods seem to work ok. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 22, 2019 Felt on both sides seems to work as well. I'll be stitching later today and will see how it works on my next project. Maybe the bright red helps? Happy machines make happy stitches? Thanks! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bert51 Report post Posted July 22, 2019 3 hours ago, RockyAussie said: I don't know as I have never tried it . The sewing machine oil I use if it drips on the leather it dries without leaving any signs ...so I just stick with that. I also use Sewing Machine Oil on my Adler 105-6 bottom tension felts, but just had a thought it might be okay to use on felt. Bert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
