Best Sewing Machines- New vs Used/Antique

[jrprottas]

8 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

The prison guy was from Craigslist, the Vegas deal was found here, and the consew was found thru a friend who deals a lot with the service guy at a local sewing shop.

Just keep an eye out. It might not pop up for 6 months, but eventually a deal will show up.

 

 

Here is just an observation I've made......

 In the general market there isn't a ton of interest in leather tools. So, family members of deceased leather workers usually have no idea what something could be worth. And then, when they look on line they want near retail pricing. The problem with that is they want to sell it all at once. They don't realize that someone interested in all that stuff already has most of it already and isn't really interested in an entire collection.

So, resale value is low on large lots owned by uninterested parties. I see it all the time here. 

This creates a buyer's market. I have heard that the best finds on industrial machines are when grandpa passed away and someone wants to sell his "old sewing machine". When the buyer shows up he finds some amazing deal on an old workhorse for next to nothing. 

I haven't experienced that one, but I've heard a few similar stories to it.

End of non requested babbling.....

Sounds like deals like these would show- up in the La Quinta/Palm Springs area as its full of retirees. Just need to narrow down what I'm looking for in making small backpacks and slingbags with multiple layers of 6oz leather. Thanks for your unsolicited overview of used equipment!  Jeff in Indio

[bikermutt07]

6 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Sounds like deals like these would show- up in the La Quinta/Palm Springs area as its full of retirees. Just need to narrow down what I'm looking for in making small backpacks and slingbags with multiple layers of 6oz leather. Thanks for your unsolicited overview of used equipment!  Jeff in Indio

Is that in Florida? You could clean up in the world of Shopsmiths. They have lots available down there. All them old guys have one, and they usually have all the accessories.

https://www.shopsmith.com/

[jrprottas]

Wanting some recommendations in these categories:

I'm new to leatherworking wanting a machine to do heavy duty (10+oz) straight stitches for backpacks.

NEW:. Are there other top contenders beyond Adler, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew, Sailrite, Juki?  Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range? Are there industrial machines that dont require daily oiling?

USED/ANTIQUE:  It seems very difficult to find used Adlers, Cobras or Cowboys. Are there some "sleepers" in the used market worth searching out that may be more available?  Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose. Any models to stay away from? Are there older classics worth seeking out?

Edited July 29, 2019 by jrprottas

[Wizcrafts]

Read this sticky article for good information and to eliminate unworthy machines. It defines the type of machine you need to sew serious leather projects.

You will soon learn that there is no single machine that sews thin and thick equally well. If most of your work ranges from 10-12 ounces to 32 ounces, a CB3200 will suffice. That is its best range. You can sew with bonded thread sizes 138 through 346 on that machine. Consult this needle and thread chart to gain insight into how thread sizes equate to actual diameters.

As for the question about other brands than our advertisers, there are several good brands out there. The Artisan Toro machines are very good. There are needle and awl harness stitchers that cost an arm and a leg but lay down a stitch to match hand stitching. Campbell-Randall and Union Lockstitch machines are the best of the class for needle and awl harness machines.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, jrprottas said:

Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose

No. Those are domestic cloth sewing machines with bottom feed and very light duty take-up components. They max out with #69 bonded thread which is just good enough to hold wallet interiors together.

[Matt S]

8 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Are there other top contenders beyond Adler, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew, Sailrite, Juki? 

I've never seen one in the flesh (they're not generally available over here) but I would hesitate to call anything Sailrite a top leather machine. I'm sure they're fine for relatively heavy fabrics though. I should also mention that Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew are brands of clone and derivative machines out of China. I'm not knocking them on that, but they're generally considered to be lower quality than Juki, Adler, Seiko etc. In a factory setting (8+ hours a day, full-speed) they wear and break a lot faster. For hobbyists and small-production facilities (as typifies the majority of members on this forum) they are more than adequate and represent a better value-for-money than a new Adler, Seiko or Juki at 2-3 times the same price for a comparable setup.
 

Quote

Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range?

In a word:, yes. In more words: yes, unless you're lucky enough to find a used machine being sold below its value and willing to spend sweat equity acquiring, cleaning, servicing and adjusting it to meet your needs. Plus $ on parts and professional help for the things you can't do. BTW $5K isn't the top end, by a long margin...
 

Quote

Are there industrial machines that dont require daily oiling?

No. It's literally a minute to do, which you roll into the daily or twice-daily clean, check and needle replacement that you will need to do anyway. If you're not running the machine full-bore for 8 hours a day you can often get away with not oiling daily, but I don't think it's a good habit to be in.

Quote

It seems very difficult to find used Adlers, Cobras or Cowboys. Are there some "sleepers" in the used market worth searching out that may be more available?  Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose. Any models to stay away from? Are there older classics worth seeking out?

Wiz has already pointed out that domestic machines are entirely unsuited to your purposes. Most of the Singers you're seeing are very likely domestics, irrespective of how they're being advertised. Singer stopped making industrial machines in the 1960s, though they were selling rebadged industrial Seikos and Adlers until some point in the 80s I think. 50+ year old industrial machines can be fun to play with but often lack features that are absolutely standard these days like reverse, safety clutches, compound feed, safety guards, needle positioner compatibility, semi-auto oilers, large bobbins. There are also often issues with availability of parts, bobbins and needles; wear; rust; parts cannibalisation; outright abuse.

If a seller describes something as "semi-industrial" they're either being misleading or have been mislead. Less generous expressions of the same sentiment are available and no less pertinent.

I don't know about your side of the pond but our vestigial manufacturing sector spits out used Adlers and Seikos on a fairly frequent basis. A lot of these models are still in production but it's important to remember that these machines have had a hard life and there's a reason why factories go through the expense and disruption of replacing their machines. I've found the best recipe for success is to find a factory that's closing down production lines rather than replacing shagged-out machines but there's still no free lunches. If I were to charge myself for the time I've spent fannying about with machines instead of actually manufacturing stuff on them I'd probably find that I would have been better off buying new machines and be done with it. But then, I'm under-capitalised and like playing about with machinery so... 

In the US you have access to some excellent dealers, who sell great VFM machines that they stand behind. The cost is the cost, be grateful that you're not over here, where at best you'll find low-to-mid-level machines for sale at the same or higher number of £ that you guys would pay in $. Plus 20% tax.

[kgg]

9 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range?

No, I think a decent new walking foot machine like the Juki DU-1181n ($1200) or one of the equivalent clone machines should be able to handle what you would like to do. A new portable walking foot sewing machine ($500 -$1500) like those of Reliable, Techsew and Sailrite to name a few would probably do for a low volume need.

If you want to move up to the $1800 range for a compound feed machine you would be looking at something similar to the Juki 1541S or for less money you could go with one of the equivalent clone machine.

kgg

[jrprottas]

On 7/29/2019 at 5:42 AM, Matt S said:

I should also mention that Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew are brands of clone and derivative machines out of China. I'm not knocking them on that, but they're generally considered to be lower quality than Juki, Adler, Seiko etc.

  I had thought these brands (CB, Cobra, Techsew, Consew) were the best of the best.  Can you provide specific cylinder arm models of Juki, Adler, Seiko, etc for straight stitch sewing for 1/2"+ layered leather sewing?  If really 2 to 3 times more expensive these may not be in my future, but would appreciate learning about them.

[jrprottas]

On 7/28/2019 at 9:33 PM, Wizcrafts said:

You can sew with bonded thread sizes 138 through 346 on that machine. Consult this needle and thread chart to gain insight

As a newbie I had just figured out that Maine poly thread sizes .035 to .045 with John James Harness needles sizes Size 01 and  Size 00 (also known as 2/0) would pair nicely for my turned backpacks. I'm totally lost on your thread/needle chart as to how to find equivalent pairings? How does the lockstitch compare to a traditional saddlestitch in terms of strength?

[kgg]

32 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Maine poly thread sizes .035 to .045 with John James Harness needles sizes Size 01 and  Size 00 (also known as 2/0) would pair nicely for my turned backpacks. I'm totally lost on your thread/needle chart as to how to find equivalent pairings

 

Your Maine Thread Company measures it's thread diameter in inches. So a .035 inch diameter waxed poly thread would be larger then the V554 thread listed in the Toledo chart with a breaking strength of 83 lbs. Need some serious iron to sew V554 thread. From the info I have, your .035" thread is approximately .889 mm and for poly it would have about 28 kg (approximately 61 lbs.) breaking strength. So working backwards you would need to use V415 having a breaking strength of 72 lbs. Once again some serious heavy iron.

So for a start it really comes down to what breaking strength your thread and seam strength needs to be so your stuff functions properly. What strength do you really need for your seams which will then determine the thread size and from that you can determine what type of sewing machine is capable of handling that size of thread and do the job. Once you figure that out then you can select the best class of machine in your dollar range. There are other factors that need to be taken into account besides just thread strength such as UV resistance, chemical resistance, abrasion resistance and seam elasticity to name a few.

kgg