what is handmade?

[Alexis1234]

I guess i define " hand made" as an item that was made using more hand tools  then machines, at a high level of skill and in a non factory type setting.

[Ken Nelson]

I would have to agree with you on your last comment.  My saddles I talk about get about or over 100 hours of time.  I do use a hand skiver to shape the ground seat, and I skive a lot of leather off of the leather I put into it.   I use a number of hand operated tools to prepare the pieces  to be fitted,  fit them by hand,  block and tack the skirts by hand.   All stamping or tooling is done by hand.  Any buckstitching is done by hand with hand cut and beveled lace made in my shop. 

The comment about hand-made being a merchandising tool and in a lot of cases, a flat out LIE is also true.  No matter what your feelings are about "hand made"  the most important thing, I think,  is be honest with your customer.  All of my customers, most  know me,  and the others Know of me.  I think this is true of most leather craftsman who have a client base.   Reputation is everything in Custom work and maybe  "Custom" is the keyword here instead of "Handmade".

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Ken Nelson said:

  No matter what your feelings are about "hand made"  the most important thing, I think,  is be honest with your customer.  All of my customers, most  know me,  and the others Know of me.  I think this is true of most leather craftsman who have a client base.   Reputation is everything in Custom work and maybe  "Custom" is the keyword here instead of "Handmade".

Very well said! 

[robs456]

3 hours ago, Ken Nelson said:

maybe  "Custom" is the keyword here instead of "Handmade"

Yes.
Speaking of the term in a marketing context I think using Custom instead of Handmade is much better.
While people nowadays don't really care how a product is made, they DO care about it being made specifically for them, and personalization. 
THAT is an excellent marketing point, as is Made-to-order.
Using 'custom' as the selling point will never break any 'ethical' obstacles either, if you believe in those.

[YinTx]

This came in the mail.  Couldn't resist.

YinTx

[Ken Nelson]

LOL  Good One!

[chuck123wapati]

On 10/17/2019 at 5:52 PM, YinTx said:

This came in the mail.  Couldn't resist.

YinTx

Now I know!!! LOL 

[Frodo]

Hand made

A true,  Baby Grand

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Frodo

[Studio-N]

oh boy, here we go. that's a loaded question kind of like

is leatherwork craft or art?  and.....go.

[JLSleather]

5 hours ago, nstarleather said:

So if you ask me to be pick between a "pro" using a machine and a hobbiest hand sewing, I'll pick the machine every day.  

Agreed.  WELL made is more important than "hand" made.

5 hours ago, nstarleather said:

There is absolutely no reason to call hand cutting better

Agreed again.  BETTER is better.  The METHOD is immaterial.  

But somebody just SHOOT ME if I ever even discuss (much less buy) a "hand crafted" piece of firewood, since I would clearly have lost the good sense to SHOOT MYSELF.

_____________________________

The VALUE in handmade (go on debate the definition without me) is that it's BETTER because INDIVIDUAL CARE was given to EACH ITEM.  I've heard people ignorant enough to say that you can tell it's "handmade" because of the FLAWS :@:!@!  WAIT.. WHAT.. ?@! 

• I would expect a "flaw" of a "misfeed" or crooked cut from an assembly line or row of presses stamping out 1000 parts per hour, with some unskilled person standig there to hit the "emerg" button when something blows. 
• I would NOT EXPECT FLAWS in the piece that somebody claims to be making ONE AT A TIME and with any skill at all.  In fact, [what is called] "handmade" is generally more expensive.  So the question must be asked, IF it's NOT BETTER, then WHY would I PAY MORE?@!

 

[Samalan]

I'm surprised no one got the answer that is generally when you lose your ass on it it's '' HAND MADE''

[Ken Nelson]

With  the right person doing the cutting with a clicker press, it is possible to do a good job of cutting pieces out of a side of leather.  However,  when a saddlemaker of high quality saddles, cuts parts for a saddle out,  if there is a hidden flaw in the leather, he will usually find it with his round knife.   I personally know several large saddle shops that cut nearly all their leather with a clicker press and they do a good job.  However,  the reason a lot of production saddles and tack are considered second or third rate by good cowboys and cowgirls on big ranches is because it becomes a contest to see how many parts can be cut from a side of leather instead of cutting the best part, out of the correct part of the hide..   Well built is the term that is important here and just a small short cut or two is the difference between a high quality saddle and a second or third rate saddle for a end user that will use it hard and test it's strength in the course of normal use for them. For the weekend pleasure rider or trail rider, what a cowboy would classify as a third rate saddle will work just fine for them.  As long as it does not sore their horse and doesn't fall of him, they are good to go.   BUT,  I have people order saddles from me that I figured were weekend trail riders that roped a lot of big, wild cattle in rough country and rode big stout broncy horses to do it on.  So I build all of them to stand a pretty tough test as I do not want to be responsible for someone getting seriously hurt or killed by one of my saddles failing. But that is just me.

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, nstarleather said:

 I've found that for most people who get upset at others who use the term and call their goods "handmade" the line is just before the machine they haven't bough yet...Most professional leather workers are fine moving up to the next too to make things easier/faster/more consistent, be it a bell skiver, edge machine, burnishing machine, clicker, etc

 

I find also that folks that have moved up to machines to make it easier have also downplayed the term once they aren't doing what they once considered handmade. My intent isn't to spark argument or make anyone's methods wrong but to open conversation and possibly find a medium ground amongst all as to the definition. This video is hilarious, probably why its title is captioned comedy, satire. We all know that sub par products can be made just as easily and far faster by machine but quality wasn't the issue of my question. 

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Samalan said:

I'm surprised no one got the answer that is generally when you lose your ass on it it's '' HAND MADE''

Why would you say that? Is there some fact hidden that says machine made goods will always make a profit? But again quality wasn't the point of the original post. 

[Ken Nelson]

Good question North Star.  I think it may be easier to find if you cut the parts by hand because for one thing, most of us cut the leather damp and when you wet it, often defects will show up that don't on dry leather.   Some of those boys (and girls) that have a lot of experience can do a good job of cutting out saddle parts with a clicker.  I have been working with, or butchering-depending on who you ask,  for a very long time.  I don't have all the answers by any means but since the late 60's when I started ordering hand-carved belts,  Handmade  has been Quality #1.   Like I stated earlier,  I consider my work to be Custom-but in my opinion, if you are calling your work handmade and truely doing handmade leather items,  it should represent quality materials and workmanship.  Same is true with Custom work.  And all of us that are serious, strive to improve every time we turn on the lights in our shop.

[chuck123wapati]

34 minutes ago, Ken Nelson said:

Good question North Star.  I think it may be easier to find if you cut the parts by hand because for one thing, most of us cut the leather damp and when you wet it, often defects will show up that don't on dry leather.   Some of those boys (and girls) that have a lot of experience can do a good job of cutting out saddle parts with a clicker.  I have been working with, or butchering-depending on who you ask,  for a very long time.  I don't have all the answers by any means but since the late 60's when I started ordering hand-carved belts,  Handmade  has been Quality #1.   Like I stated earlier,  I consider my work to be Custom-but in my opinion, if you are calling your work handmade and truely doing handmade leather items,  it should represent quality materials and workmanship.  Same is true with Custom work.  And all of us that are serious, strive to improve every time we turn on the lights in our shop.

That was a good question , I would think the crafters experience would play into it also, less experienced, myself included, wouldn't know what to look for in some of the flaws no matter how they  were producing the piece. 

[Studio-N]

so if you use a makers stamp to impress your logo versus cutting it in with a swivel knife - has it diminished the fact the item is 'hand made'?

 

[JLSleather]

19 hours ago, nstarleather said:

more to do with the maker's attention to detail than the tool being used

Congratulations. YOu've answered the question [ for those who forgot, the question was what is hand made ].

[chrisash]

Hand made food can go through a few processes, products could use cheese brought in same with butter and may also use minced beef in a pie

All very confusing

Like the idea of "Made by a craftsperson or artisan" 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, nstarleather said:

I get that but I think what's happened on this thread is the idea of not really "what is handmade" but what is "average customer" maybe be looking for when they seek something "handmade" 

 

 

It has, but not the intent of my original question, yes quality is the most important reason for purchasing any item, hopefully most would agree,  and I agree also but what defines quality? A handmade loaf of bread for example isn't perfectly shaped like store bought bread, it isn't cut in perfect 1/2" slices but it contains better ingredients, so which is the highest quality bread?  I'm finding the use of the term handmade to be a bit of a conundrum on this site one camp uses it to represent quality, the other to represent a "cop out" as some have put it. We all know a machine can cut a perfectly straight line in a piece of crap leather and a machine can sew a perfect stitch with crap thread does that perfection in symmetry equal higher quality, obviously it doesn't always right? So then why is that the argument of some? It does show the level of expertise by the maker, the quality of his tools, the extent of his knowledge, his basic ability, and his eye for detail just the same as if he were using a machine right?  So then back to my original question for you, at what point would you call your work handmade? Quality is not the question.

[jrny4wrd]

Hand made is when you make the item from start to finish. Not purchasing pre-made items. I don’t think a sewing machine really matters as the words are “hand made” not “hand sewn”. Fact is is not everything really needs the strength of a hand sewn item. Many stitches are mearly for looks. 
If product does not go through a manufacturing belt and the item is made with great detail and attention; as well as actually touching and manipulating it with your own hands, I see it as hand-made. 
Saying this, I will both carve and tool as well as use the occasional stamp. If something is entirely stamped, I am sure to tell people. Custom, hand-made, personalized, they are all different. Some people make some shitty hand-made items. They are not artisans. Quality has nothing to do with how it’s made, just who’s making it. 

[Alexis1234]

Bottom line, in my opinion, "handmade" is so subjective.. I think it's just a trendy word at this point. As a consumer myself, I'll use a purse as an example: I could care less if my purse was sewn on  or cut out by a machine or by hand. I want to see that its well made and there's attention to  the little details. As far as horse harness( that's my main interest), if a maker is advertising hand stitched keepers, generally it means it's  a well made harness- they paid attention, there are extra little details that set that harness above the average(again, that's a generalization). In fact, I would almost equate handmade to mean "rustic" or "primitive" in some instances...an excuse for obvious mistakes/flaws. Where I live, there is tons of "handmade" log furniture...

[jrny4wrd]

3 minutes ago, nstarleather said:

I mean no offense by this but If we ignore the "what the customer is thinking/wanting" when they look for "handmade" and keep it an internal debate it's pointless.   

I get that this is a forum of makers but what we think doesn't mean much: Who are we speaking to when we stamp "handmade" on a product or use "handmade" in an item description: other craftsmen or our customers?

If it's just an internal debate that really doesn't mean a whole lot no matter we land.

This is why you have so many differing opinions, from literally only leather that's processed DIY with hand tools (eliminating anything that comes from a tannery with machinery) on the most handmade side, to items that are cut, sewn, and edged by machine that still have to go through the "hands" of someone of considerable skill. 

It comes down to what are most customers thinking when they see the term, not what we think.  It's all about being honest with the potential customer about the processes we use. Anything else is just being pedantic.

 

 I'm personally fine with handmade being used in 90% of circumstances...when I don't like it is when someone is clearly deceptive like if a person has pictures of hand stitching on their site (or worse product page)  and the items are clearly machine stitched.   If I see handmade and nobody talks about hand stitching or hand cutting then I assume it's done by machine.

 

 

Perfectly stated. 

[chuck123wapati]

14 minutes ago, nstarleather said:

I mean no offense by this but If we ignore the "what the customer is thinking/wanting" when they look for "handmade" and keep it an internal debate it's pointless.   

I get that this is a forum of makers but what we think doesn't mean much: Who are we speaking to when we stamp "handmade" on a product or use "handmade" in an item description: other craftsmen or our customers?

If it's just an internal debate that really doesn't mean a whole lot no matter we land.

This is why you have so many differing opinions, from literally only leather that's processed DIY with hand tools (eliminating anything that comes from a tannery with machinery) on the most handmade side, to items that are cut, sewn, and edged by machine that still have to go through the "hands" of someone of considerable skill. 

It comes down to what are most customers thinking when they see the term, not what we think.  It's all about being honest with the potential customer about the processes we use. Anything else is just being pedantic.

 

 I'm personally fine with handmade being used in 90% of circumstances...when I don't like it is when someone is clearly deceptive like if a person has pictures of hand stitching on their site (or worse product page)  and the items are clearly machine stitched.   If I see handmade and nobody talks about hand stitching or hand cutting then I assume it's done by machine.

 

 

I agree that is the essence of use for the term handmade is for the consumer, but I simply wanted to get the ideas from the makers as to their ideas of the definition so I would know, as well others on this site, how to interpret what others think their work is, we are all consumers as well as makers and as more knowledgeable in the nuances of leather work should be able to offer a more constructive opinion. Most consumers I have dealt with go with the idea that handmade may have small flaws but the quality of materials are just as important maybe more so than perfect lines, some folks don't really care either way as long as they can get their name on it, I think due in part to our highly disposable world and our new found wealth as a society has made a bunch of folks just happy as hell to spend money without thought. I like your opinion of its use and also agree there are bad apples willing to use the term to further their personal goals without thought of ethical behavior. 

[chuck123wapati]

33 minutes ago, Alexis1234 said:

Bottom line, in my opinion, "handmade" is so subjective.. I think it's just a trendy word at this point. As a consumer myself, I'll use a purse as an example: I could care less if my purse was sewn on  or cut out by a machine or by hand. I want to see that its well made and there's attention to  the little details. As far as horse harness( that's my main interest), if a maker is advertising hand stitched keepers, generally it means it's  a well made harness- they paid attention, there are extra little details that set that harness above the average(again, that's a generalization). In fact, I would almost equate handmade to mean "rustic" or "primitive" in some instances...an excuse for obvious mistakes/flaws. Where I live, there is tons of "handmade" log furniture...

Its very subjective to the circumstance being applied, same here there is a ton of 
"homemade" crap as well as artisan, retro, etc. I my lil town also. Do you consider your work to be handmade? If so why or why not?