Wrestling match- which machine is Best

[jrprottas]

After months of the excitement and aggravation of reading things on this forum and elsewhere in an attempt to figure out which first machine is best, I'm still lost.

I realize that projects range from sewing dainty silk lingerie to saddles and asbestos suits. All I want is a machine that will do card cases/wallets (6OZ), but which can also do wilderness strength small back packs (up to 30oz total).  

Is #69 thread ok for card cases and billfolds?

Is #210 on the weak side for bags and small backpacks? Is #210 thread at 32 pounds of strength enough for most bags?

When a company claims a thread range of #69-210 can this range be accomplished without the hour+ long process of dumbing it down?

Several machines claim this range of thread sizes, and 7/16 to 5/8" depths.  Cobra Class 26, Techsew 3650,  Techsew 2750, CB341, ETC. 

The more I think this thru the more I think a sub-441 class will meet my needs. Am I missing something else?

Thanks in advance for your patience and for sharing your experiences .

[Ferg]

I believe your main problem is that you are wanting a machine to do two extremes.

Sorry, but you need two machines. A flat bed that will handle #69 - #138, and a cylinder arm with an accessory flat bed table that will give you #92 - #207.

#69 will be okay for most interiors of wallets and the like, you need to use minimum #92 for exteriors while #138 is better. Back packs and the like need at least #138. You utilize both machines in this endeavor.

Sorry if that doesn't help your problem.

Ferg

[DonInReno]

A walking foot upholstery machine is a good middle of the road choice for anything other than light weight sewing, but I’m assuming you already have a light weight machine of some kind?

 

[jrprottas]

8 minutes ago, DonInReno said:

A walking foot upholstery machine is a good middle of the road choice for anything other than light weight sewing, but I’m assuming you already have a light weight machine of some kind?

 

Actually this would be my first machine.  I like your term "middle of the road" as it describes what I'd like to get if its possible. Something that I could I initially use for wallets and small bags until I find a niche. I realize I cant do saddle work or fine stitching with such a machine. I realize it would represent compromise: 1/2" depth rather than 7/8", a 277 thread weight rather than 415, etc

And I definately don't want a compromise that doesnt do anything very well,  and end up buying 3 machines.

[Wizcrafts]

4 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Actually this would be my first machine.  I like your term "middle of the road" as it describes what I'd like to get if its possible. Something that I could I initially use for wallets and small bags until I find a niche. I realize I cant do saddle work or fine stitching with such a machine. I realize it would represent compromise: 1/2" depth rather than 7/8", a 277 thread weight rather than 415, etc

And I definately don't want a compromise that doesnt do anything very well,  and end up buying 3 machines.

This describes the Cowboy CB3200. You would want to order it with a range of needles and thread covering thread sizes #92 through 277. Then, consider a flat slotted throat plate for lighter weight projects and smaller thread and needles. Get lots of bobbins and preload them with various sizes of thread. Buy thread spools in pairs of each color so you can wind a fresh bobbin as you sew.

[kgg]

I agree with Ferg, you need two machines. Another consideration that I would consider is the shank diameter of the needle as this will determine the size of the hole in the leather or fabric that the thread is going to pass through. A common needle system for upholstery type machines is the 135x16/17 with a shank diameter of 2.0 mm while for a heavy duty cylinder machine like the CB3200 it would 794 needle with a shank diameter of 2.5 mm. Doesn't seem much of a difference but could really make a difference in stitching methods and appearance.

Before you buy your machine, as it is an expensive investment, go to a dealer with a sample of your stuff, compare and see what fits your needs / budget best. Buy Once, Cry Once.

kgg   

[DonInReno]

Welcome to the sewing world - you’ll have a bit of learning curve to get over before things get easy, but just keep at it and you’ll get it.

Most middle of the road machines can’t sew 277 - for that you’d need a machine like  Wiz suggests.  No matter how much research is done, nothing will give you a better idea of what a machine is like and if it’s what you want than actually sewing with it.  

[Louiesdad]

Try to go to a Juki dealer and let them show you the differences between the "real deals" and clones....the side by side differences will amaze you.

Buy used if necessary to get the machine(s) needed, and remember the "real deals" rarely if  ever wear out....

[jrprottas]

I'm already stretching my wife's limit buying a clone and havnt educated myself about the originals.  Can you outline the Juki model numbers that correspond to the specs of the machines above?

I would probably need to buy an older Juki workhorse to get into this class. Can you suggest a few of the classics?

Buying the very best has always been my MO so I could definately justify if fairly reasonable. Thanks

[kgg]

9 hours ago, Louiesdad said:

Try to go to a Juki dealer and let them show you the differences between the "real deals" and clones....the side by side differences will amaze you.

Totally agree. When I was looking for a compound flatbed I looked at and test drove a few of the Chinese Clones in the upholstery class. Some I have to admit did a pretty good stitch others vibrated, crunched and just sounded like a bucket of bolts banging around. Needless to say I bought the Juki 1541S and have been very pleased that I bought it. Down the road when I need / want another machine I know that the Juki is going to be easier to sell and have better resale value then that of a comparable clone.

36 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

I'm already stretching my wife's limit buying a clone and havnt educated myself about the originals.

If dollars are the major factor buy a good used brand name from a reputable dealer in the class you need like a Singer, Juki, Pfaff, Alder and test drive it with your stuff.

kgg

[jrprottas]

On 10/22/2019 at 8:03 PM, Louiesdad said:

Try to go to a Juki dealer and let them show you the differences between the "real deals" and clones....the side by side differences will amaze you.

Buy used if necessary to get the machine(s) needed, and remember the "real deals" rarely if  ever wear out....

Can you suggest some Juki models that can do 1/2+" depth and cover a thread range of 92-207. Since your post I've been looking at the 1508 used and the 1541 but can find the depth or thread specs. I'd like the servo motor, speed reducer and a cylinder arm which attachable flatbed table. Is there a site that compares Juki models to the clones?

[Wizcrafts]

9 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Can you suggest some Juki models that can do 1/2+" depth and cover a thread range of 92-207. Since your post I've been looking at the 1508 used and the 1541 but can find the depth or thread specs. I'd like the servo motor, speed reducer and a cylinder arm which attachable flatbed table. Is there a site that compares Juki models to the clones?

There is one I know of: Juki LU-1508NH that has a longer needle stroke, takes System 190 needles and can be setup to sew 1/2 inch with up to #207 thread, using a #24 needle. The next step up is the Juki TSC-441 that sews at least 3/4 inch with up to #415 thread and uses System 794 needles.

[Louiesdad]

As above man stated 1508 is middle of range then 441.

Google the full machine model numbers and various deals will pop up having them. Get the range of prices from the dealers and you have a basis for a starting point. Search both craigslist and ebay they pop up every now and then. Have a local service person ready to service it when it arrives.

Know what you will pay and jump when one shows up, be ready to make minor repairs and be aware these machines are expensive to buy parts for, some taking 4-5 weeks to arrive from japan.  So just bite the bullet when a part is missing and needed, when you sell it will pay you back.

[jrprottas]

22 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

There is one I know of: Juki LU-1508NH that has a longer needle stroke, takes System 190 needles and can be setup to sew 1/2 inch with up to #207 thread, using a #24 needle. The next step up is the Juki TSC-441 that sews at least 3/4 inch with up to #415 thread and uses System 794 needles.

Great info thank you. Where does the 1541 fit into the Juki lineup?

I've been looking at craigslist in LA  county and there are lots of used industrial cylinder arm machines by Juki, Pfaff, Consew, Atlas, etc. but I dont know what I'm looking for. Eg is the juki 1541 worth looking at? Are there other older models, or manufacturers, like Atlas with a good reputation? What Pfaff model should I look for? I know about the consew 206: are there other models that might meet my needs,?

Again, just looking for reliable brand to sew 1/2" thickness with #92-210 thread

Edited October 25, 2019 by jrprottas
added info

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Great info thank you. Where does the 1541 fit into the Juki lineup?

It is a general purpose upholstery class machine. It maxes out at 3/8 inch with #138 bonded thread, like every other similar upholstery machine. Their needle stroke is too short to clear 1/2 inch under the alternating feet. The needle is not long enough either. Further, the top of the alternating feet will make hard contact with the bottom of the needle bar if you try climbing too high. This may break the thread guide off and may even throw the needle bar out of time.

The Juki 1508NH will do what you asked. It was built specifically to use longer needles and lift higher before any parts make contact. Why look at less qualified machines that use standard walking foot needles?

Note, that only the 1508 subclass NH can sew 1/2 inch and use #210 thread. The other 1508s only sew 3/8 inch with #138.

There is another class of machines that can sew up to about 1/2 inch. They are cloned from the ancient Singer 45k and have bottom feed only. Cowboy has this model, called the CB2500.

[DonInReno]

One word of warning, not just to you, but anyone who hasn’t sewn at all - not everyone enjoys sewing as much as they envisioned it.  I think it’s essential to get even a yard sale domestic machine and make simple things or just practice making straight seams, before spending a lot of money.

[jrprottas]

Searching Los Angeles Craigslist every day. Thanks to this post,  I've added a couple of Juki models (notably the 1508NH) to my lookout list.

There seem to be alot of Singer and Pfaff machines. Older Union machines. Econosew, Consew, etc Can you folks suggest a couple of model numbers of older machines that I should be the lookout for that meet the 1/2" requirement?

Actually I wish Wiz and others would construct a list of the top 12 or 24 older models that leatherworkers use in the lightweight thread range, and also in the heavier weight class.

So far my list includes current model clones: CB3200 Pro, CLASS 3/4 Cobras, Techsew 3650,/4100,  Toro3200 Ped, Juki 1508NH, etc.

Are there other old standbys in this spec category that I can be considering?

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by jrprottas

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Can you folks suggest a couple of model numbers of older machines that I should be the lookout for that meet the 1/2" requirement?

AFAIK, only the Singer 132k6 and 45k25 can sew 1/2 inch. I've owned both a long time ago. The 132 has a spring loaded alternating pressers system while the 45k25 has a roller foot. Both have aggressive feed dogs. Both take up to #346 thread, using a #26 needle. The roller foot doesn't hold leather down as well as the alternating pressers, or a flat foot with a split toe. So, I limited the 45k25 to #277 thread and a #25 needle.

FYI: The Singer 132k6 was marketed as a buffing wheel sewing machine and had a special attachment available the was used to sew them in a converging circle.

The modern equivalent of the 45k is the Cowboy CB2500. Although the foot lifts to 1/2 inch, it is spec'd at 7/16 inch, with #346 thread.

[Matt S]

Further to Wiz's usual wisdom, almost any Singer 45K variant or clone will be suitable, subject to their inherent design limitations. The main exceptions would be the subclasses designed for darning, often not fitted with (or even for) a feeding mechanism. I don't know about your side of the pond but 45Ks are pretty common over here.

Adler 4/5 (good quality Singer 45K clones) and their later 104/105 range should have no issue with a half inch. I see the 104/105 (and their far more recent 204/205 series, only recently discontinued) as "product improved" Singer 45Ks, with desirable modern features such as reverse and compound feed. Again pretty commonly available over here.

However as Wiz points out, older machine models that can realistically sew a half inch of leather are fairly few and far between. Over here the old BUSM "Pearson" No6 harness stitcher is not uncommon and is specced to do 3/4". (I've persuaded mine to do 1"... once...)

Most Singer 7s should be able to do a half inch of leather too, though like the 45K, 132K and 133K they were mostly drop feed only. Oh and the Singer 97 too.

Remember though that old machines come with a whole host of disadvantages over a similar capacity current production model. I say that as someone who really enjoys tinkering with vintage machines but is gradually replacing them with modern or recently discontinued models. Old machines are cheap for good reasons.

[jrprottas]

Thank you. This is great information and gives me new ideas to look for. Is there a model or 2 of the Pfaff machines that might fall into this category? There are so many listed on CL in my area.

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Thank you. This is great information and gives me new ideas to look for. Is there a model or 2 of the Pfaff machines that might fall into this category? There are so many listed on CL in my area.

If there are any Pfaff than are rated at 1/2 inch, they would have to use system 190 needles, which are about 3/16" longer than regular system 135x16 walking foot needles.

[jrprottas]

5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

If there are any Pfaff than are rated at 1/2 inch, they would have to use system 190 needles, which are about 3/16" longer than regular system 135x16 walking foot needles.

Thank you. I can rule them out!

[Wizcrafts]

57 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Thank you. I can rule them out!

System 190 needles are oftentimes referred to as Pfaff needles. So, there must be a Pfaff model that uses them and has a longer stroke. I just don't know what model or models that encompasses.