identifying flaws

[chuck123wapati]

So some tips on identifying flaws in hides would really help me out and I'm sure others also. What to look for in a hide before cutting or purchasing or even flaws in a finished product.  Thanks all for any help you are willing to give.

Edited November 2, 2019 by chuck123wapati
thanks

[billybopp]

Things to look for would include holes, scars, brands, bumps (bug bites), excessively "fuzzy" back, excessive wrinkling, too much uneven coloring (there's likely to be a little),  uneven thickness or excessive uneven hand/stiffness above the expected differences on various areas of the hide (could indicate untanned areas).  Don't worry TOO much about marks or discoloration near the edges, that is to be expected ... A little.  I'm sure others may have a some other things to look out for.

 

-Bill

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, billybopp said:

Things to look for would include holes, scars, brands, bumps (bug bites), excessively "fuzzy" back, excessive wrinkling, too much uneven coloring (there's likely to be a little),  uneven thickness or excessive uneven hand/stiffness above the expected differences on various areas of the hide (could indicate untanned areas).  Don't worry TOO much about marks or discoloration near the edges, that is to be expected ... A little.  I'm sure others may have a some other things to look out for.

 

-Bill

 

 

Thank you ! as I posted the question about defining handmade there seemed to be a lot of talk about seeing or finding flaws that you should be able to find easier or more often during the handmaking process that would otherwise be overlooked. I was wondering what these would be?

[battlemunky]

Unless its a really deep scar or branding, I'm more concerned with fuzzy flesh sided leather. Unless I am shooting for clean perfection, bug bites, brands, scratches, range marks, and other "life happened to this thing" marks are kinda cool. I usually don't aim for them but I usually find myself pleasantly surprised by them. I also usually don't get them on most hides unless I'm getting them from Tandy. HO and Acadia are usually pretty free of blemishes on their premium stuff from what I've found. I'm hobby level though and don't move nearly as much as a lot of other folks do but this has been my experience.

[terrymac]

The only flaw that may be the errant stitch(especially on the back) that would show as being handmade. This notion that mistakes are acceptable as a means of identifying an item as being handmade vs. factory is is, in my opinion, is an excuse for substandard work and a cop out.  As Nigel Atrmitage asks " If you can't do it better, than why are you making it?"  Look at some the master's work, you don't find mistakes.

Terry

[billybopp]

In a finished product, I'd look for any or all of the flaws listed above for stated.  There are cases where some of the leather flaws might not be a factor as @battlemunkylisted above might be fine for certain types of items.  They can add character in some items.  Other items, not so much.  The leather should fit the product!  

Things to look for would include: Are the edges even, or were they left uneven and sloppy.  Were the edges finished for an elegant product?  They MIGHT be left raw for something more rustic, which would be fine.   Are the parts consistent and even, or are they sloppy?   Are THOSE edges finished appropriately for the product.  Is the stitching a consistent distance from the edge and straight?  Are the stitches neat and consistent, or are they uneven and not all lying properly?  Did they make the stitching nice and square on a corner that is square, or just sew right around the corner because that's easier.   Is the dye on the leather a consistent color?  Uneven dye might be fine for a rustic item, but it wouldn't be so on a dressy wallet or belt.  Did they use the right type and thickness of leather for the product?  A wallet made from thick leather inside and out can get awfully chunky and heavy, which might be fine for a rugged wallet, but not for an elegant one.    

We could go on about flaws to look for, and I'm sure that others have more ideas to add to the list.  But this list should get you started on some things to look out for.  A few are absolute no-nos for ANY product, but it's mostly more about what is appropriate for the product.

To add a little more, I used to have a friend that worked for a place that made leather seats for auto makers.  He told me that BMW was MUCH fussier about the quality of leather and work in general than was Cadillac, which was pickier than Chevrolet.   The quality and level of finish matched the level of the finished product.  

- Bill

Edited November 3, 2019 by billybopp
Adding a little more

[chuck123wapati]

15 hours ago, battlemunky said:

Unless its a really deep scar or branding, I'm more concerned with fuzzy flesh sided leather. Unless I am shooting for clean perfection, bug bites, brands, scratches, range marks, and other "life happened to this thing" marks are kinda cool. I usually don't aim for them but I usually find myself pleasantly surprised by them. I also usually don't get them on most hides unless I'm getting them from Tandy. HO and Acadia are usually pretty free of blemishes on their premium stuff from what I've found. I'm hobby level though and don't move nearly as much as a lot of other folks do but this has been my experience.

Thank you. 

[chuck123wapati]

13 hours ago, terrymac said:

The only flaw that may be the errant stitch(especially on the back) that would show as being handmade. This notion that mistakes are acceptable as a means of identifying an item as being handmade vs. factory is is, in my opinion, is an excuse for substandard work and a cop out.  As Nigel Atrmitage asks " If you can't do it better, than why are you making it?"  Look at some the master's work, you don't find mistakes.

Terry

I don't know anyone with that notion personally and don't care to. I was asking for more of tips on identifying potential problems in leather before my time is wasted on a bad piece of leather, as we all know substandard products can and do come in many disguises, not only shoddy craftsmanship but subpar materials as well, I think  a very nice machine sewn stitch would hide low grade thread, for example, easier than handstitched, and would be worse even than an errant stitch done by hand. Thank you for your comment. 

[JLSleather]

Leather is a 'natural' product.  But too often that is used as an excuse to sell POO.  All leather is natural, but not all leather is acceptable.  "Marks", brands, scratches, bites, wrinkles.... [supposedly] "add charm" and "character" to the finished goods?  Yeah... maybe you like dents in your car too?  How about hail damage to your home?  That's "natural".. should make your home "worth more" right?  Makes it look "natural" and gives it that "lived in " charm, right? 

That's ridiculous, of course.  That's why tanneries charge more for leather that DOESN'T have these DEFECTS and FLAWS.

I don't think you can find a side of veg cow that doesn't have some wrinkling in the shoulder area (where a cow person might call "withers").  This is natural to the build of the cow.  But those wrinkles are  not the same as "wrinkles" from loose grain, distortion, back bending, etc.  Want to see some acceptable wrinkles incorporated into the design of projects, check out work here by fgabesz - note he's making holsters with it, which wouldn't be subjected to a lot of stretch and tension.

THIS, however, was sent to me by one supplier who advertised and sold it as "hermann oak B grade".  I'm willing to believe that it came from HO, but this is NOT "B" leather... totally unacceptable.  Pathetic even.  I do not see where a guy could cut even a single belt without those 'wrinkles' running across it.  They cut their own throat with this ... they'll never sell me leather again.

[Tugadude]

I, for one, am getting tired of people singling out Tandy.  Am I to believe they are the only supplier that has shipped out questionable hides?  Preposterous.  I don't work for them but have visited at least 4 locations in three states and all had helpful staff and a lot of quality product.  

The question was what to look for, not an opportunity to criticize a vendor.

Some will think I have "thin skin", pun intended, but Tandy has probably started more people in this craft than any other store, book video or whatever.  They deserve some respect for that alone.

Feel free to cast stones now that I've gotten it off of my chest.  Won't bother me.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, billybopp said:

In a finished product, I'd look for any or all of the flaws listed above for stated.  There are cases where some of the leather flaws might not be a factor as @battlemunkylisted above might be fine for certain types of items.  They can add character in some items.  Other items, not so much.  The leather should fit the product!  

Things to look for would include: Are the edges even, or were they left uneven and sloppy.  Were the edges finished for an elegant product?  They MIGHT be left raw for something more rustic, which would be fine.   Are the parts consistent and even, or are they sloppy?   Are THOSE edges finished appropriately for the product.  Is the stitching a consistent distance from the edge and straight?  Are the stitches neat and consistent, or are they uneven and not all lying properly?  Did they make the stitching nice and square on a corner that is square, or just sew right around the corner because that's easier.   Is the dye on the leather a consistent color?  Uneven dye might be fine for a rustic item, but it wouldn't be so on a dressy wallet or belt.  Did they use the right type and thickness of leather for the product?  A wallet made from thick leather inside and out can get awfully chunky and heavy, which might be fine for a rugged wallet, but not for an elegant one.    

We could go on about flaws to look for, and I'm sure that others have more ideas to add to the list.  But this list should get you started on some things to look out for.  A few are absolute no-nos for ANY product, but it's mostly more about what is appropriate for the product.

To add a little more, I used to have a friend that worked for a place that made leather seats for auto makers.  He told me that BMW was MUCH fussier about the quality of leather and work in general than was Cadillac, which was pickier than Chevrolet.   The quality and level of finish matched the level of the finished product.  

- Bill

Thank you, I like your ideas on when flaws may be ok, that would keep many from throwing out leather that may not be suitable for more sophisticated works. 

[chuck123wapati]

3 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Leather is a 'natural' product.  But too often that is used as an excuse to sell POO.  All leather is natural, but not all leather is acceptable.  "Marks", brands, scratches, bites, wrinkles.... [supposedly] "add charm" and "character" to the finished goods?  Yeah... maybe you like dents in your car too?  How about hail damage to your home?  That's "natural".. should make your home "worth more" right?  Makes it look "natural" and gives it that "lived in " charm, right? 

That's ridiculous, of course.  That's why tanneries charge more for leather that DOESN'T have these DEFECTS and FLAWS.

I don't think you can find a side of veg cow that doesn't have some wrinkling in the shoulder area (where a cow person might call "withers").  This is natural to the build of the cow.  But those wrinkles are  not the same as "wrinkles" from loose grain, distortion, back bending, etc.  Want to see some acceptable wrinkles incorporated into the design of projects, check out work here by fgabesz - note he's making holsters with it, which wouldn't be subjected to a lot of stretch and tension.

THIS, however, was sent to me by one supplier who advertised and sold it as "hermann oak B grade".  I'm willing to believe that it came from HO, but this is NOT "B" leather... totally unacceptable.  Pathetic even.  I do not see where a guy could cut even a single belt without those 'wrinkles' running across it.  They cut their own throat with this ... they'll never sell me leather again.

Thank you, great picture and explanation of the problem. 

[JLSleather]

By contrast, THIS is what "B" leather FROM HERMANN OAK looks like (not what some retailer claimed was "B" leather).

This is the top (neck) end of a side of "B".  Note the 'wrinkles' in the shoulder area (this piece would be called a "single shoulder).

The next pic would be the other end (butt) of the side (not teh same side, but it's a pic I had already uploaded for other purposes).  Note virtually NO wrinkles from butt to shoulder.  

And, the final pic is a close-up shot of the grain, which is smooth, consistent, and CLEAN.

CLICK PICS to enlarge if desired.

[battlemunky]

16 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I, for one, am getting tired of people singling out Tandy.  Am I to believe they are the only supplier that has shipped out questionable hides?  Preposterous.  I don't work for them but have visited at least 4 locations in three states and all had helpful staff and a lot of quality product.  

The question was what to look for, not an opportunity to criticize a vendor.

Some will think I have "thin skin", pun intended, but Tandy has probably started more people in this craft than any other store, book video or whatever.  They deserve some respect for that alone.

Feel free to cast stones now that I've gotten it off of my chest.  Won't bother me.

I deliberately call out Tandy but I won't do that to you. Yes, as many others, I got started with Tandy goods. Then I got better. Tandy never did. The first hides I received from ANY other vendors than Tandy were far beyond better than Tandy. I still buy Tandy leather and tools from time to time. The last hides I bought from them were hand selected and still had bug bites that weren't visible until the dye hit. I'm not anti-Tandy but am am fully behind letting people know that there is a difference and that so far, unlike some others, I haven't had a negative experience with HO or Acadia. My experience is not vast but over 5 sides from non-Tandy sources and 10 sides from Tandy, the non-Tandy sources have been far superior. I even imagine "bad" HO is better than typical Tandy stuff with regard to fit and finish. The high end European sides I have gotten from Tandy have been top notch but they came at a cost that had I known about other suppliers I would have saved a few hundred bucks.

I want it known that I'm not bagging on Tandy but being critical of where my money goes drives me to be honest and not slanderous.

Also, Tandy personnel have, for the most part, been pretty helpful. I've encountered a few "experts" that had never sewn, cut, or tooled a single piece of leather though. I assume that if I went to other places in person I'd experience similar folks. All of them have been friendly and will help me spend money.

Edited November 3, 2019 by battlemunky

[JLSleather]

40 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I, for one, am getting tired of people singling out Tandy.

Yeah, been like that around this site for YEARS.  You can show 'em decent work done with leather FROM TANDY, won't make any difference.  Some just feel the NEED to repeat what the other guy said, even with evidence to the contrary right beside them.  I was at a Tandy yesterday - only one in Iowa.  New manager, and that gal certainly does know what she's talking about.  We talked 'leather' far too long, and she showed us a very nice bag she's in the process of making. Perhaps she'll see this and give us a pic ...

 This is UNtooled - dyed only - leather from Tandy.  Seemed to take the dye just fine.

 And this was tooled in a double shoulder I picked up at Tandy (same store).  Seems to hold shape pretty well.

 

[fredk]

I'll jump in here if I may.

a. on Tandy - I'm mixed on them. I buy some tools and fittings from them and some specialised leather, like snakeskin as I can't get it anywheres else. On their regular leather - no way hose-ayy. When they had a branch in Manchester I went there to buy. I was gonna buy some leather, until I checked it. It was shelved flat. When I started to bend some 2mm (5 oz)  it not only started to crack visibly but it 'cracked' in sound too. I couldn't even bend the 3.5mm (9oz)!    They scammed me thee times as well.  1. That time, the sales guy slipped a board of that mouldable board they do. I didn't notice until later as a. it was a big cash order and b. I was in a hurry to catch a ferry ship. 2. overcharging me on an order and promising a refund - never got, 3. sending rubbish off cuts as usable leather. I'm actually glad they shut down the Manchester branch with those tossers as staff.

b. I used to have customers who actually wanted the imperfections in their leather items. Not just wanted but insisted on it. Small scars, bites, abrasions et al. The best one was - I had a piece of leather heading for the 'scrap' bin. It had a scar about 8 inches long about 2 inches wide at one end and about 5 inches of its length was right through. There was plenty of good leather around it tho. A lady customer came in. She wanted a new 'occasional' shoulder bag. She spotted this scarred piece and insisted that it was to be the front flap of the bag. I didn't tell her it was rubbish / waste. She said that scar would make her bag totally unique. The customer got what she wanted. 

c. On the general nature of flaws. On something I made recently what I think are bite marks didn't show up until the dye and finish coat had fully dried. Not the best of photos of it but you might be able to see marks to the left and top. As the piece was already sewn, glued and riveted in place replacement was not an option.

On some other work abrasions didn't show up until the dye had dried. Those pieces were scrapped as the abrasions made them just too unusable

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

By contrast, THIS is what "B" leather FROM HERMANN OAK looks like (not what some retailer claimed was "B" leather).

This is the top (neck) end of a side of "B".  Note the 'wrinkles' in the shoulder area (this piece would be called a "single shoulder).

The next pic would be the other end (butt) of the side (not teh same side, but it's a pic I had already uploaded for other purposes).  Note virtually NO wrinkles from butt to shoulder.  

And, the final pic is a close-up shot of the grain, which is smooth, consistent, and CLEAN.

CLICK PICS to enlarge if desired.

Thank you these are great pictures.

 

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Yeah, been like that around this site for YEARS.  You can show 'em decent work done with leather FROM TANDY, won't make any difference.  Some just feel the NEED to repeat what the other guy said, even with evidence to the contrary right beside them.  I was at a Tandy yesterday - only one in Iowa.  New manager, and that gal certainly does know what she's talking about.  We talked 'leather' far too long, and she showed us a very nice bag she's in the process of making. Perhaps she'll see this and give us a pic ...

 This is UNtooled - dyed only - leather from Tandy.  Seemed to take the dye just fine.

 And this was tooled in a double shoulder I picked up at Tandy (same store).  Seems to hold shape pretty well.

 

I have picked up on that as well. I would think Tandy doesn't tan their own leathers but buys lots from other tanneries. I think buying from them would need to be in store so a person can do their own inspections that would stop any problems with their products. I don't have a problem with the company but do consider the comments and act on them.