Practice stitching

[chuck123wapati]

32 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

Many schools aren't teaching it anymore.  Whether you use it or not, I still would teach it.  Do you need it?  Obviously not.  So how is that related to stitching?  Only in that if you accept that slanted is traditional (and perhaps there is argument there) then some will want to strive to achieve it.  Are they right?  Not any more than those who espouse we  write out things in cursive.  To each his or her own as they say.

Traditional? How about time proven, like in thousands of years of actual testing! The leather helps hold the lockstitch in place and is a much stronger stitch because of that  also that the loss of the leather weakens the leather.

 Your example is awesome, try and read our nations constitution without knowing cursive then ask yourself if your children need the ability to understand it themselves or have it read to them by an "expert".

[toxo]

58 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

There's a lot of truth in what you said there.  Even Mr. Armitage's stance on chisels has softened.  I think he learned that they have value.  The new styles of stitching chisels make decent stitching attainable to beginners.  So that is progress!

And that's another side to this stitching thing. I believe the reason that Dieselpunk.ro is so popular is because of his round holes. The Motoko3 I posted above was my first leather project and that was just a few months ago. That encouraged me to do many more including The Large Weekender. Would I have had the confidence to get so into it if I had to do things the "right way"? And Chuck, before we start talking about weakening the leather (and there's no doubt that it does) let's just remind ourselves how much weight a supermarket plastic bag can take.

 

[Hardrada]

Heh, cursive. I had to learn that in elementary. They taught nothing else. All assignments had to be handed in in cursive or they were not accepted. My cursive was ugly as heck, in spite of all of those caligraphy (cloud and rain) exercises. In high school the stance softened, you could use cursive or block, teachers didn't care as long as it was legible. I wanted to change but had the hardest time getting up to speed with block; I flew in cursive. I eventually managed to become efficient and proficient in block.

Funny thing is, nowadays I write in Sütterlin; and I'm glad that one isn't taught anymore: my writings remain private.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

And that's another side to this stitching thing. I believe the reason that Dieselpunk.ro is so popular is because of his round holes. The Motoko3 I posted above was my first leather project and that was just a few months ago. That encouraged me to do many more including The Large Weekender. Would I have had the confidence to get so into it if I had to do things the "right way"? And Chuck, before we start talking about weakening the leather (and there's no doubt that it does) let's just remind ourselves how much weight a supermarket plastic bag can take.

 

yup it depends if your stitches are needed for looks or work! Punch 4 I/8 th inch holes in a one inch strap and you have  a I/2 inch strap. cut 4 slots with a chisel and you still have a one inch strap. To each his own.  Remember those plastic bags are one use bag, and no they don't work well, is that what you make leather products for? Don't get me wrong I don't care how anyone else does it and if dumbing it down makes dieselpunk a profit then good for him, doesn't mean its the tried and true way to do it all or the correct way, it is the easiest way and why people go for it.  Your bag is beautiful stitching and all! I was just saying there is a reason why the methods used for stitching came to be, a lock stich is more than just the thread it is the combination of the leather and the thread and how they work together. There is also a reason why holes came to be, ease of sewing and or used for decorative stitching etc. I use both but depending on the job.

[toxo]

6 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

Your bag is beautiful stitching and all

Ha Ha! Chuck you should be a politician. As you can see the hole/thread/needle size can be improved on but it is all saddle stitched and it took forever. If I'd had to prick and awl I'd still be doing it now.

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

And that's another side to this stitching thing. I believe the reason that Dieselpunk.ro is so popular is because of his round holes. The Motoko3 I posted above was my first leather project and that was just a few months ago. That encouraged me to do many more including The Large Weekender. Would I have had the confidence to get so into it if I had to do things the "right way"? And Chuck, before we start talking about weakening the leather (and there's no doubt that it does) let's just remind ourselves how much weight a supermarket plastic bag can take.

 

Beautiful job on the bag!  Is that an embossed leather or the real skin?  If real it must have cost a fortune, or in England is that "donkeys"?

 

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Traditional? How about time proven, like in thousands of years of actual testing! The leather helps hold the lockstitch in place and is a much stronger stitch because of that  also that the loss of the leather weakens the leather.

 Your example is awesome, try and read our nations constitution without knowing cursive then ask yourself if your children need the ability to understand it themselves or have it read to them by an "expert".

By tradition, I didn't mean the saddle stitch itself, but rather the importance of it being slanted.  Some believe that to be a "true" saddle stitch, the threads must behave in a manner as to create a slanted stitch.  They contend that a flat, or straight stitch just doesn't pass muster.  I'm not saying I take it that far, but I am saying that I STRIVE to create the slant.  I am not always successful.  Sometimes I am.  And sometimes only on one side!  But I keep trying.

[toxo]

Thanks Tug. It's embossed and I have to own up to a cock up. I didn't realise till I cut it out that it's a big bag and I questioned whether @ 1.3mm it would be thick enough so I "lined" it (glued) with some 2.4mm veg tan (all I had on hand). This of course meant that I had to punch all those holes and cut out again. Now it's more like a stylish suitcase than the collapsible gym bag I envisioned originally. Still, it's all fun right?  

As an aside, I have to say that the quirks of this site and the quirks of my clubs WiFi are contriving to drive me up the wall.

I was sitting in the club about an hour ago and wrote all this out on my iphone. Now firstly, for some reason the clubs WiFi won't allow me to connect to LW.net. I turned off the WiFi and connected, wrote out this message and after submitting was told that I was a bad boy because I'd used an emoji. On trying to delete the emoji the whole lot went missing. I sat there and said to myself, Oh what deep joy.

[rodneywt1180b]

Any monkey can make a saddle stitch.  A good saddle stitch is a different matter.  Good looking stitches take consistency and a lot of practice.  It takes time to achieve that.  I'm still working on "good".  Watch Neil Armitage's videos and keep practicing.  You're off to a good start. Also keep in mind that what seems like huge imperfections to you are actually pretty minor and won't be noticed by non leatherworkers.

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Beautiful job on the bag!  Is that an embossed leather or the real skin?  If real it must have cost a fortune, or in England is that "donkeys"?

 

By tradition, I didn't mean the saddle stitch itself, but rather the importance of it being slanted.  Some believe that to be a "true" saddle stitch, the threads must behave in a manner as to create a slanted stitch.  

There is a reason they believe that, the importance is what makes the stitch, the diamond cut that doesn't detract from the leathers strength or integrity, the angle of the cut, diamond shape, provides that when the stitch is pulled it seals the hole and provides the tension that keeps the lock stitch locked  and the thread itself sewn correctly provides the lock stitch that doesn't fail. Its a micro-system if you will developed over hundreds of years by folks that used leather on a daily basis. Some times we fail to realize  that there is much more to such a simple thing as a stitch and why it matters. On a handbag no biggie on the reins of a horse well maybe a biggie ifn he goes off.  I an not an expert at stitching or leather work by any means but always strive to learn and understand and am very guilty of over studying the process but for me I have the urge to know why something is the way it is and why it done that way. 

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, toxo said:

Ha Ha! Chuck you should be a politician. As you can see the hole/thread/needle size can be improved on but it is all saddle stitched and it took forever. If I'd had to prick and awl I'd still be doing it now.

LOL its beautiful!! and agree it would take some time indeed no matter how you did it. Your right I do tend to talk to much, its ok to tell me to shut up I get off track easily. 

[toxo]

4 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

LOL its beautiful!! and agree it would take some time indeed no matter how you did it. Your right I do tend to talk to much, its ok to tell me to shut up I get off track easily. 

Come on! I wouldn't dream of it. All opinions are valid. That's how we learn from each other. It's the fanatics we need to watch, the only way is their way and no one elses opinion counts for anything. You've only got to look at our UK MPs over the last couple of years to see how good that is.

[rodneywt1180b]

Correction to my post above: Nigel Armitage, not Neil.

[Tugadude]

I just came across this video and I think it does a good job of explaining the mechanics of the saddle stitch.  He teaches it with a cast, which is good for some types of leather and thicknesses but not desirable on all.

The other thing about the video is the choice of thread.  In my opinion he should have sized up for those irons.  There is too much of the slit showing after the stitching for my taste.

 

 

[toxo]

I think you're right on both counts Tug but is this guy ever on a commission? I wouldn't buy a raffle ticket from someone that smarmy.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

I just came across this video and I think it does a good job of explaining the mechanics of the saddle stitch.  He teaches it with a cast, which is good for some types of leather and thicknesses but not desirable on all.

The other thing about the video is the choice of thread.  In my opinion he should have sized up for those irons.  There is too much of the slit showing after the stitching for my taste.

 

 

Pretty good video showing the proper sewing techniques but I'm still not buying one lol, the takeaway for me = hole size affects the looks of the stitch dramatically , finishing the stitch work with final seating of the stitch via hammer is important to a good looking stitch. I agree I think with a heavier thread the slant would be more natural looking on both sides, the side with the bigger holes was to big for the thread size while the other was marginal. Is there a rule of thumb for thread size compared to hole size? 

[billybopp]

14 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

Pretty good video showing the proper sewing techniques but I'm still not buying one lol, the takeaway for me = hole size affects the looks of the stitch dramatically , finishing the stitch work with final seating of the stitch via hammer is important to a good looking stitch. I agree I think with a heavier thread the slant would be more natural looking on both sides, the side with the bigger holes was to big for the thread size while the other was marginal. Is there a rule of thumb for thread size compared to hole size? 

Sadly, there is not set rule of thumb for thread/needle/hole size that I've ever come across, other than the bigger the hole the bigger the needle and thread.   And yes, there is an interplay of hole size, slant angle, thickness, thread size & thickness, and sewing technique.   There's a lot going on in something that seems so simple.  It is also worth noting that not all irons/chisels and awls are created equal!   They need to suit your technique OR your technique needs to change to suit them.

- Bill

[Tugadude]

I would say that for the irons he was demonstrating that a 0.8mm would be appropriate.

Nigel Armitage does publish his opinions on thread sizing for the various sized pricking irons and stitching chisels.  He actually test drove them and compared them with thread sizes.  He has all of the major brands covered at this point.

[Hardrada]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Pretty good video showing the proper sewing techniques but I'm still not buying one lol, the takeaway for me = hole size affects the looks of the stitch dramatically , finishing the stitch work with final seating of the stitch via hammer is important to a good looking stitch. I agree I think with a heavier thread the slant would be more natural looking on both sides, the side with the bigger holes was to big for the thread size while the other was marginal. Is there a rule of thumb for thread size compared to hole size? 

Interesting, as I've been contemplating buying irons such as those, except that I've been looking at the KS Blade ones. S'possedly the European style of hole is better for small items which use thin thread—maybe I should order the Seiwa European irons to try it out first—but then that's buying twice. Decisions, decisions. I stitch my pouches with Tiger 0.6 mm. I don't dislike the diamond irons, but there's no reverse diamond irons to be found anywhere it seems.

This are the guidelines I've been using for thread/stitching:

https://www.ianatkinson.net/leather/leatherguide.htm#thread

It's not gospel, but I've found it appropriate. I only use 9 spi and 6.5 spi irons, with Tiger 0.6 mm and 0.8 mm respectively.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Hardrada
Addenda

[chuck123wapati]

22 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

 

https://www.ianatkinson.net/leather/leatherguide.htm#thread

It's not gospel, but I've found it appropriate. I only use 9 spi and 6.5 spi irons, with Tiger 0.6 mm and 0.8 mm respectively.

Great info there! Thanks