Black Dye Problems

[AmyMarie]

Hey everyone,

New to leather working and new to the forum here... I have been making spur straps and belts but recently had someone request a set of black spur straps be made. I am using 8-9oz veg tanned leather and have eco-flo black dye. What I have noticed on some practice pieces I have done so far is that the black dye makes the leather incredibly dry, especially on the backside. Now here's a couple of things:

1) Should I be dying the rough out backside of the leather for spur straps?

2) What else can I try to use to give some life back to the leather? I have tried neatsfoot oil to try to soften it and some other leather conditioner but the leather still feels rough and dry.

3) The edges are not burnishing well. What can I use to give the edges a nice shiny finish after using this dye?

Sorry for the questions, I haven't had this issue with any other dyes I have used so far!

Amy

[Dwight]

Well, Amy, . . . first off, . . . I tossed my ecoflo dye a long time ago.

Went back to Feibings oil dye, . . . will be here for the duration.

Secondly, . . . give the flesh side of the leather a light coat of neatsfoot oil (not the compound, . . . it is junk), . . . with a bristle brush (just make sure you cover the whole piece, . . . again, flesh side only.

Let the oil soak in for 24 to 36 hours, . . . then dip dye it in the black dye that has been cut 50-50 with thinner.  Just dip it in, . . . pull it out, . . . don't leave it in any longer than to pick up the color, . . . wipe excess off with a paper towel.

Allow it to dry for 24 hours, . . . and rub it real good to get rid of the excess pigment that always is there with black.  Use an old wash cloth.

The edges should burnish really good for you if you did that, . . . I use only water, . . . edges look like glass when I'm done.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Handstitched]

Welcome to the world of leather   and welcome to the forum  

When I do  plain black   belts( and other dark colours) , I give the leather a good dose of oil grain side  & flesh side....same goes with straps, knife cases etc. Let soak in.   I then dye both grain side & flesh side.   I have also  learnt, from experience,  that the leather burnishes quite well when  still slightly damp . The dye I use may be different  to what others use. I use  Birdsall  Dye from Birdsall Leather in NSW Australia, water based with a bit of alcohol for drying. 

No need to apologise about the questions, because the questions you ask may save you time $$ and frustration , and the answers may help someone else new to leather  

HS

Edited February 9, 2020 by Handstitched

[JLSleather]

8 hours ago, AmyMarie said:

1) Should I be dying the rough out backside of the leather for spur straps?

2) What else can I try to use to give some life back to the leather? I have tried neatsfoot oil to try to soften it and some other leather conditioner but the leather still feels rough and dry.

3) The edges are not burnishing well. What can I use to give the edges a nice shiny finish after using this dye?

1) I don't t think it matters if the back of the leather is dyed or not. If you're applying with a brush or dauber, then dont.  Or you might prefer to "dip" dye it, which will do the back, and that's fine.

2)  Neatsfoot is what I use. It has worked for decades.  I tried mink oil and Lexol, which both seem fine but I still use the Neatsfoot.

3)  I've never used that ec0-flow stuff, so I don't know if that's causing your burnishing issue or not.  But if you're using quality leather, all you need to burnish is some  clean water and a stick.

Tough to help more without info and/or pics of what you're doing and what you're using.  I use Fiebing's black dye, neatsfoot oil, sometimes seal with Fiebing's resolene.  But i haven't done spur straps in quite a while.. maybe I should fix that?@!

[AmyMarie]

On 2/8/2020 at 10:18 PM, Dwight said:

Well, Amy, . . . first off, . . . I tossed my ecoflo dye a long time ago.

Went back to Feibings oil dye, . . . will be here for the duration.

Secondly, . . . give the flesh side of the leather a light coat of neatsfoot oil (not the compound, . . . it is junk), . . . with a bristle brush (just make sure you cover the whole piece, . . . again, flesh side only.

Let the oil soak in for 24 to 36 hours, . . . then dip dye it in the black dye that has been cut 50-50 with thinner.  Just dip it in, . . . pull it out, . . . don't leave it in any longer than to pick up the color, . . . wipe excess off with a paper towel.

Allow it to dry for 24 hours, . . . and rub it real good to get rid of the excess pigment that always is there with black.  Use an old wash cloth.

The edges should burnish really good for you if you did that, . . . I use only water, . . . edges look like glass when I'm done.

May God bless,

Dwight

Thank you Dwight! I will have to look into the oil dye and give dip dyeing a shot. What type of thinner do you use for this? And I never thought to oil before the dye, I will try that, too!

[AmyMarie]

3 hours ago, Handstitched said:

Welcome to the world of leather   and welcome to the forum  

When I do  plain black   belts( and other dark colours) , I give the leather a good dose of oil grain side  & flesh side....same goes with straps, knife cases etc. Let soak in.   I then dye both grain side & flesh side.   I have also  learnt, from experience,  that the leather burnishes quite well when  still slightly damp . The dye I use may be different  to what others use. I use  Birdsall  Dye from Birdsall Leather in NSW Australia, water based with a bit of alcohol for drying. 

No need to apologise about the questions, because the questions you ask may save you time $$ and frustration , and the answers may help someone else new to leather  

HS

Handstitiched,

Thank you very much for the suggestions, I hadn't thought about applying oil prior to applying the dye, I will give that a shot for sure. I was just about to try dying some other straps but am definitely going to wait now until the oil is soaked in!

 

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

1) I don't t think it matters if the back of the leather is dyed or not. If you're applying with a brush or dauber, then dont.  Or you might prefer to "dip" dye it, which will do the back, and that's fine.

2)  Neatsfoot is what I use. It has worked for decades.  I tried mink oil and Lexol, which both seem fine but I still use the Neatsfoot.

3)  I've never used that ec0-flow stuff, so I don't know if that's causing your burnishing issue or not.  But if you're using quality leather, all you need to burnish is some  clean water and a stick.

Tough to help more without info and/or pics of what you're doing and what you're using.  I use Fiebing's black dye, neatsfoot oil, sometimes seal with Fiebing's resolene.  But i haven't done spur straps in quite a while.. maybe I should fix that?@!

JLSleather, 

I am using sheepskin daubers and I noticed with black I am getting a ton of fuzzies left over that are sticking to the leather as well. I have been trying other ways to apply the dye and may go with the dip dye as you mentioned! Do you seal the spur straps with resolene? I tried to seal some practice pieces with Neat-Lac and they turned out terrible...

[JLSleather]

35 minutes ago, AmyMarie said:

JLSleather, 

I am using sheepskin daubers and I noticed with black I am getting a ton of fuzzies left over that are sticking to the leather as well. I have been trying other ways to apply the dye and may go with the dip dye as you mentioned! Do you seal the spur straps with resolene? I tried to seal some practice pieces with Neat-Lac and they turned out terrible...

With Fiebing's dyes, really don't git the fuzzies.  Eco flow I think is thicker in the bottle, yes?  More likely to be the issue.

Neat-lac CAN be used for those... I seen some folks do it WELL.  But the way they used to make it (1980-sumthin?) had to be thinned to work right.. full strenght out the can (it was a metal can back then) almost guaranteed to crack on something like spur strap  Makes a hard finish when done properly.. makes cleaning the straps kinda sweet, painless.  I know they stopped making neat-lac, then I heard that there was some newer product to replace it, but that's all I know about that.  That plus the fumes from neat-lac - being a lacquer - would kill brain cells.  Maybe that explains some folks ...

[sinpac]

Just now, JLSleather said:

With Fiebing's dyes, really don't git the fuzzies.  Eco flow I think is thicker in the bottle, yes?  More likely to be the issue.

Neat-lac CAN be used for those... I seen some folks do it WELL.  But the way they used to make it (1980-sumthin?) had to be thinned to work right.. full strenght out the can (it was a metal can back then) almost guaranteed to crack on something like spur strap  Makes a hard finish when done properly.. makes cleaning the straps kinda sweet, painless.  I know they stopped making neat-lac, then I heard that there was some newer product to replace it, but that's all I know about that.  That plus the fumes from neat-lac - being a lacquer - would kill brain cells.  Maybe that explains some folks ...

Clear-Lac. I read somewhere years ago that you can make up a Black dye concoction called black vinegaroon. Made of white vinegar and cut nails

[sinpac]

I think Pan handle is the only one who carries CLear-Laq now. Yes here is a link https://panhandleleather.com/product/lci-clear-lac-qt/

[AmyMarie]

2 minutes ago, sinpac said:

I think Pan handle is the only one who carries CLear-Laq now. Yes here is a link https://panhandleleather.com/product/lci-clear-lac-qt/

Sinpac,

Unfortunately I will not be able to make the vinegaroon, I live in a military barracks so that's a no-go  Is there a big difference between the clear-lac and neat-lac? I just bought the neat-lac from Tandy Leather.

23 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

With Fiebing's dyes, really don't git the fuzzies.  Eco flow I think is thicker in the bottle, yes?  More likely to be the issue.

Neat-lac CAN be used for those... I seen some folks do it WELL.  But the way they used to make it (1980-sumthin?) had to be thinned to work right.. full strenght out the can (it was a metal can back then) almost guaranteed to crack on something like spur strap  Makes a hard finish when done properly.. makes cleaning the straps kinda sweet, painless.  I know they stopped making neat-lac, then I heard that there was some newer product to replace it, but that's all I know about that.  That plus the fumes from neat-lac - being a lacquer - would kill brain cells.  Maybe that explains some folks ...

The cracking does make sense, the neat-lac made the practice straps hard as a rock (thank god I practiced these all first!!). I put it on a belt I made and it turned out beautiful, these straps though, not so much. I'm definitely going to get some of the Fiebing's oil dye like you mentioned.... Seems to be the way to go for sure.

[JLSleather]

Tandy has NEAT-LAC?@!  YOu must be stationed in Asia somewhere

SHOOT.. too much talkin', not enough sewin'... back to work!

[sinpac]

1 minute ago, AmyMarie said:

Is there a big difference between the clear-lac and neat-lac?

I really don't the difference between the two. I know neatlac is amber and clearlac is clear they are both lacquer base. maybe JLS will chime in.

[sinpac]

7 minutes ago, AmyMarie said:

Sinpac,

Unfortunately I will not be able to make the vinegaroon, I live in a military barracks so that's a no-go 

Not even a little batch in your foot locker?

[AmyMarie]

Just now, sinpac said:

Not even a little batch in your foot locker?

The thought of the questions that would be raised when they found that hahaha  Maybe a small batch, I'll have to keep it somewhere else though, the smell might be too awful with the vinegar!

[sinpac]

4 minutes ago, AmyMarie said:

The thought of the questions that would be raised when they found that hahaha  Maybe a small batch, I'll have to keep it somewhere else though, the smell might be too awful with the vinegar!

My acronym might be dated here but, if caught with the concoction just tell them. People with a higher pay grade have put you in charge of the NBC program and that your developing a new agent. that ought to work.

[AmyMarie]

1 minute ago, sinpac said:

My acronym might be dated here but, if caught with the concoction just tell them. People with a higher pay grade have put you in charge of the NBC program and that your developing a new agent. that ought to work.

You'll see me on the news next week 

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, AmyMarie said:

Thank you Dwight! I will have to look into the oil dye and give drip dyeing a shot. What type of thinner do you use for this? And I never thought to oil before the dye, I will try that, too!

What I do is only buy the Feibings dye in the little 4 oz containers.  When I buy one of them, . . . right down the counter, . . . I buy a 4 oz container of their dye thinner, . . . it comes in a bottle that looks just like the dye, . . . I then pour the dye into a bigger jug and rinse that little bottle out with the thinner, . . . and when the two mix together, . . . it is always a 50-50 mix, . . . 

I got rid of a lot of dye and thinner "troubles" when I adopted this procedure some years ago.

That was also about the time I gave up on Eco-flo, . . . 

AND, . . . I've never used the vinegar and steel solution for dying leather, . . . I've heard great things about it working, . . . but there is another step after you use the vinegaroon, . . . and someone more knowledgeable than me will have to tell you about it.  But it is something necessary.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dwight

[Mattsbagger]

3 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Tandy has NEAT-LAC?@!  YOu must be stationed in Asia somewhere

SHOOT.. too much talkin', not enough sewin'... back to work!

They brought it back about a year ago. I think it’s water based now though.

https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/eco-flo-tandy-neat-lac-8-fl-oz-237-ml

Edited February 9, 2020 by Mattsbagger

[TheNorthldahokid]

10 hours ago, AmyMarie said:

Thank you Dwight! I will have to look into the oil dye and give drip dyeing a shot. What type of thinner do you use for this? And I never thought to oil before the dye, I will try that, too!

Just wanted to say use the Pro Dye if you can, it is much nicer, better colors but more especially when it come to the Black! I started with the regular dye but I switched over as soon as I realized the difference. Just my two cents, hoping to save you some disappointments. And I am glad that you started this topic planning to two some black dyeing here soon myself and all this is very helpful. Good luck!

[AmyMarie]

On 2/9/2020 at 10:28 PM, TheNorthldahokid said:

Just wanted to say use the Pro Dye if you can, it is much nicer, better colors but more especially when it come to the Black! I started with the regular dye but I switched over as soon as I realized the difference. Just my two cents, hoping to save you some disappointments. And I am glad that you started this topic planning to two some black dyeing here soon myself and all this is very helpful. Good luck!

Have you had any issues with the black rubbing off when it gets wet? That's the new problem I am running into. I've oiled it before then dyed, when I went to burnish the edges with water the dye started dripping off! I have been rubbing it as much as possible to try to get the excess pigment off but the second water touches it, it is running like crazy!

Edited February 22, 2020 by AmyMarie

[TheNorthldahokid]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:15 PM, AmyMarie said:

Have you had any issues with the black rubbing off when it gets wet? That's the new problem I am running into. I've oiled it before then dyed, when I went to burnish the edges with water the dye started dripping off! I have been rubbing it as much as possible to try to get the excess pigment off but the second water touches it, it is running like crazy!

 AmyMarie,

     Sorry about taking so long to respond. But to answer your question NO, I have not had any problems with the black rubbing off. In fact I had just dyed some pieces for testing and when I saw your question I got a cloth soaking wet and started rubbing those pieces. I had a little bit, like very little bit mostly just excess pigment I think, but nothing like what you are describing. I am using pro-dye though, I do remember having a bit more trouble with the regular dye lifting off afterwards, one of the main reasons why I switched from the regular to the Pro-Dye. I also oiled before dyeing, hope this helps.