Sewing Machine Needle Systems Question

[skipj]

What's a needle "system"?

SkipJ

[Art]

Hi Skip,

The needle system defines the two critical dimensions (the diameter of the shank and the distance from butt to eye) and roughly defines the type of blade, including the eye and point. There are about 5 different "systems" from Singer to Canu with additional letters or numbers to designate point types or orientations of the particular system. A few different systems are 135x17, and its "twin" 135x16, 794, 190, 328, 13435, 7x3, and 332 that are used by popular threaded needle machines.

Size is generally the diameter of the needle in any of the above systems. The size is usually specified in Singer or nm or both as in the following:

Singer/Metric (Needle Size Reference table)

S nm

7 55

8 60

9 65

10 70

11 75

12 80

14 90

16 100

18 110

19 120

20 125

21 130

22 140

23 160

24 180

25 200

27 250

Art

What's a needle "system"?

SkipJ

[bcurrier]

A needle system is a set of specifications for a needle. It includes at least shank type and diameter and length from the butt end to the eye, but can also include things such as the specs for the grooves, tapers, flats, etc. The system itself does not specify the point type or size (size is the diameter at the eye end, not the shank or butt end), which are always specified in addition to the system when a needle is ordered, and in fact, there are multiple systems and naming standards for both needle sizing and point types also.

A needle system may IMPLY a size range or point or usage type, however, which only adds to the confusion when trying to figure out if a particular system is usable on your machine. Finally, needle and sewing machine manufacturers have the habit of appending proprietary creative and cryptic bits to existing needle system names when they create a new needle based on an existing type. "794 Serv1" would be an example, where "Serv1" designates a shorter needle of a 794 type ... even though the length would "normally" call for yet another system. Confusing, isn't it?

Needle system naming originates primarily from the sewing machine manufacturers, but many of them are closely associated with needle manufacturers - often because the needle maker was involved in creating the machine(s) with the sewing machine makers from the outset. There are multiple needle system names for most needle types. Although cross references exist - I've seen them - to find identical, comparable, and usable systems, they are very hard to find, and none up-to-date, to my knowledge.

In the end, if you have a machine that takes a common needle, like a DBx1 in a single needle lockstitch machine, you're simply never going to have an issue finding needles in all sizes and points. If you have something slightly more exotic, like the 794 used in the 441 class machines using for sewing leather, it pays to develop a knowledge of systems, point designations, and needle makers.

Briefly, though, there's needle system, size system, point specification system, and various additional proprietary add-on designations. There are multiple systems to specify the system, the size, and the point. It makes for thousands of potential combinations, many, many, many of them for physically identical needles.

It's extremely confusing, but once you've gone through it a few times and understand what you're looking at, it gets better. But then there's THREAD specs ... which are just as bad ...

Bill

[esantoro]

I always come up with my own peculiar naming conventions when I'm writing down construction notes for my bags. For example I know that a 42.5" gusset is for an 18x13 gerber , which all means for an 18" by 13" bag with corners made using the lid of a Gerber baby food jar, because it was the right size. If I ever decide to go narrower and use a quarter for a cutting template, it will then be called an 18x13 quarter.

The ideas for naming come to me on the fly. certain names stick and then I stick with them. I've wondered if many industrial naming conventions also came about via such a practical route?

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

It is probably the same thing with needle systems. They mean something to somebody probably long dead.

The system variously designated 7x3, 794, DYx3, and Canu 53:20 are the same basic system and should be called a 2.50x60.00 then add some letters for the other stuff like tip type and orientation.

Then folks say how about all the 2.00 stuff, well there are few diameter x length duplicates there but when there are you could use a 100th of a mm on either side of the true length to fix that, and it wouldn't affect the operation of any machine I know of if they actually manufactured a needle 100th of a mm too long; for instance:

Our old friend the 135x17, DPx17, 2167, SY3355, Canu 37:20 could be called the 2.00x39.00 with a bunch of letter designations for tip and orientation,

and, the infamous TVx3, DVx43, 149x3, 149x31, SY3651, Canu 38:00 could be called the 2.00x39.01 with a bunch of letters.

The DBx1 would end up with a bunch of different systems because the diameter is different on so many of them, but with any good system there are exceptions.

Problem is, there is no agreed upon standards organization and nobody gives a hoot anyway.

Art

I always come up with my own peculiar naming conventions when I'm writing down construction notes for my bags. For example I know that a 42.5" gusset is for an 18x13 gerber , which all means for an 18" by 13" bag with corners made using the lid of a Gerber baby food jar, because it was the right size. If I ever decide to go narrower and use a quarter for a cutting template, it will then be called an 18x13 quarter.

The ideas for naming come to me on the fly. certain names stick and then I stick with them. I've wondered if many industrial naming conventions also came about via such a practical route?

Ed

[skipj]

Thanks for answering my dumb question, meaning every time I read about sewing machines, I realize how little I know and how complicated they are. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

SkipJ

[Art]

Hi Skip,

They really aren't that complicated, especially the stuff we use, the threads are huge compared to the home sewing and embroidery world and the tolerances are correspondingly large, also they are easier to work on because of the larger sizes and it's easier to see in there. Working on a big stitcher is kind of like working on a Toyota engine. Needle and Awl machines can push the envelope a little, but you just have to think carburetors an no computers, they do everything with mechanical timing, not tension. Most of the threaded needle stuff hasn't changes since the 1900s when they switched from real shuttles to rotary. Like any engine, timing can make it run or not run. All the home stuff is electronic now but they are still sewing machines, just the needle deflection and feeds are computer controlled, boards and solenoids aren't too complicated though. I love the old Elna SUs where they controlled all that with cams and leavers.

If you need to take it to a sewing machine repair, just make sure the mechanic is over 50.

Art

Thanks for answering my dumb question, meaning every time I read about sewing machines, I realize how little I know and how complicated they are. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

SkipJ

[Kevin]

I am afraid I know the answer to my question before I ask, but are there any books that explain this stuff? I have 12 or 13 machines at home and 6 or so at work and ordering 100 needles at a time gives me a headache when I have to try to explain what I want when the order taker doesn't seem to know as much as I do.(next to nothing) Thanks , Kevin

[Art]

Hi Kevin,

The Schmetz website is probably the best resource although the website is a bugger to navigate. If you just need to know what needle system to use for what machine, call them or email them and give them the most complete model number you have. Once you know the system you can get a list of the needle points and sizes by application from the website.

Art

I am afraid I know the answer to my question before I ask, but are there any books that explain this stuff? I have 12 or 13 machines at home and 6 or so at work and ordering 100 needles at a time gives me a headache when I have to try to explain what I want when the order taker doesn't seem to know as much as I do.(next to nothing) Thanks , Kevin

[Kevin]

Thanks Art I'll give that a try, Kevin PS I grew up in Alexandria, used to go to The Super Chief Drive In, bought vegetables at a stand on Indian Head Hwy. and we always went to Marshall Hall, not Glen Echo.