Loop stapler: Weaver vs. EGM vs. ?

[Matt S]

Hi all. I mostly die cut and rivet my keeper/slide loops at the moment, which is mostly fine but a little fiddly, slower than I want it to be, and bulky due to the overlap. If the job needs a less bulky loop I butt stitch them, but that's slow. I think ideally I'd machine sew them in the round but I need to sew as small as 3/4" (19mm) loops regularly, 1/2" (12mm) on occasion, and I don't know of any sewing machine that can do that (especially with V138/TKT20 thread). It's not a huge volume (maybe 200 per month ATM) but I want to be able to scale up and reduce the time I'm taking per loop and want to reduce the bulk while maintaining the strength.

I think that the most realistic solution is butt stapling. I've tried the sort of stapler you'd use on a carton, which works okay but they're ugly and not as tight as I'd like. What I think would work best is the heavy brass decorative staples used on horse harness loops.

It looks like Weaver makes a die set (item #65-6672, click) for their Little Wonder press that does the job. I could probably adapt these to fit an existing press I have. Alternatively Campbell-Randall sells an Italian loop stapler by EGM (click) that appears to do basically the same job.

Has anyone who's used these sort of staples please explain the process? Does the loop stock need slits cut in before stapling, or can the staple pierce the leather reliably? I'd primarily be using 2mm/5oz leather, mostly medium temper chrome tan but some bridle also. Are the staples flush on the inside of the loop after setting, or would they need a second operation to flatten them out? How strong are the loops after setting? Would they withstand blocking?

TIA! Matt

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

Hi Matt.  I make at least several hundred slide loops a year with a stapler that sets a staple similar to Weaver's press.  I use the Standard #2 machine that was made by Standard Rivet, and I use a little bigger staple than the Weaver press takes.  Theirs is a 15 x 4 staple, mine is a 15 x 5, which is plenty big on smaller loops, but works better on the larger ones.   It's a pretty straightforward process.  The staple pokes its own holes, so no pre-poking needed.  The anvil turns the points of the staple back up into the leather, but there is a bump left by the prongs.  I normally put the loops on a loop iron after I've stapled them to form them up anyway, and I hit the bottom with a hammer to flatten the prongs so the loop slides easily and doesn't leave imprints all over the backs of the straps.  If you have been riveting and hand stitching your loops, stapling will be a treat, even with a single feed machine.  I have dies for my automatics for both the 15 x 4 and 15 x 5 staples,  but more often than not I still staple them on my old Standard #2 hand feed machine.

Regarding strength, slide loops are the first thing to fail on a harness, usually.  It's just a fact.  I don't mind handstitching loops like they are on English tack, but I have to get paid for it.  There are two or three dozen slide loops on a set of team harness.  You see the problem.  I replace lost/broken slide loops free of charge on a harness that I build.  The stainless steel staples hold up pretty well.  Plated steel rots out quickly, and brass falls somewhere between the two.  Longevity depends somewhat on the application I guess.  On belts, I think they'd last forever.

I hope that answers your questions.  Good luck.

[maxdaddy]

4 hours ago, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

hope that answers your questions

Thanks for sharing all of that insight. Very interesting.

[Matt S]

12 hours ago, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

[Very useful things]

I hope that answers your questions.  Good luck.

Absolutely perfect response to a rather esoteric question, delivered very quickly by an experienced user and with no expectation of payment or quid pro quo. Thank you. People like you are what makes this website one of the best on the net.

I think I'll order the dies and staples as soon as I can get over the $55 Weaver wants to charge me for shipping a few ounces of metal across the ocean, and figure out why they're charging me sales tax when the goods are clearly going overseas .

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

17 hours ago, maxdaddy said:

Thanks for sharing all of that insight. Very interesting.

 

9 hours ago, Matt S said:

Absolutely perfect response to a rather esoteric question, delivered very quickly by an experienced user and with no expectation of payment or quid pro quo. Thank you. People like you are what makes this website one of the best on the net.

I think I'll order the dies and staples as soon as I can get over the $55 Weaver wants to charge me for shipping a few ounces of metal across the ocean, and figure out why they're charging me sales tax when the goods are clearly going overseas .

You're quite welcome, both of you.  

[DomsLeather]

I use bottom zipper stops. Been using them over 10 years now. You have to poke hole first then bend over tabs. 

[Matt S]

I got the Weaver dies today! I don't have a Little Wonder press, and the dies are a bit tall for any of my existing presses, so I've got them setup in my milling machine for now. They work fantastic -- exactly what I was looking for. The dies are well machined from steel (no pot metal) and the spring in the upper die retains the staple perfectly until the press comes down. The brass staples have no problem piercing the 2mm chrome cowhide I'm using and set very securely with a minimum of force.

I'll have to make a more permanent arrangement, probably by modifying a cheap/common press but these things are great!

Now just to figure out how to block chrome tanned leather...

[ButtonLady]

On 7/3/2020 at 12:39 PM, Matt S said:

I got the Weaver dies today! I don't have a Little Wonder press, and the dies are a bit tall for any of my existing presses, so I've got them setup in my milling machine for now.

This is a few months late, but... I have a *huge* favor to ask of Matt S or any other owner of this die:  Could you possibly measure the height of the top and bottom dies for me? —not the shanks, just height of the working parts.  I'm trying to determine if I can use them in MY non-Weaver press, and whether there would be enough clearance between the dies.  The shanks are 3/8" diameter... yes?

I have an Osborne machine with prototype 3/8" die adapter.

[Sonydaze]

13 hours ago, ButtonLady said:

This is a few months late, but... I have a *huge* favor to ask of Matt S or any other owner of this die:  Could you possibly measure the height of the top and bottom dies for me? —not the shanks, just height of the working parts.  I'm trying to determine if I can use them in MY non-Weaver press, and whether there would be enough clearance between the dies.  The shanks are 3/8" diameter... yes?

I have an Osborne machine with prototype 3/8" die adapter.

I have the Weaver dies (and am very happy with them).

The top die sticks out press shaft 1 3/4" and the bottom die sticks up 7/8".  So you need 2 5/8" plus room between them to put the staple and leather in. 

The shanks that fit into the press are both 3/8"

[ButtonLady]

Just now, Sonydaze said:

The top die sticks out press shaft 1 3/4" and the bottom die sticks up 7/8".  So you need 2 5/8" plus room between them to put the staple and leather in. 

The shanks that fit into the press are both 3/8"

THANK YOU, Sonydaze!  That is a HUGE help! ☺☺☺

[Matt S]

Looks like @Sonydaze beat me to it! I ended up modding a cheap arbor press to hold my loop stapling dies, and it's dedicated to that job now. That frees my milling machine up for the very pressing task of gathering more dust in the corner.

Thanks again to @BigSiouxSaddlery for her help pushing me towards the Weaver loop staples. Excellent product -- simple, solid, reliable, quick, smart and inexpensive. (Well, the staples are inexpensive. The dies cost more than the twin needle machine I bought to dedicate to sewing the loop strips. )

[ButtonLady]

On 7/3/2020 at 12:39 PM, Matt S said:

...the dies are a bit tall for any of my existing presses

Judging by the measurements so kindly provided by @Sonydaze, it is indeed a chunky die.  Too tall for a button press with a 3/8" adapter, but nice work with your "new" dedicated machine.

 

10 hours ago, Matt S said:

That frees my milling machine up for the very pressing task of gathering more dust in the corner.

It's a difficult job, but someone (something?) has to do it.  Can I volunteer?  I would like to sit in the corner and do nothing for a while.

[Sonydaze]

None of my hand presses were vertically open enough for the dies, they only fit in my foot press.

[ButtonLady]

7 hours ago, Sonydaze said:

None of my hand presses were vertically open enough for the dies, they only fit in my foot press.

That actually makes me feel a little better, thanks.  I'm discovering limitations I did not anticipate with this project (mostly lack of clearance).

Edited November 17, 2020 by ButtonLady