Moccasins made of vegetable-tanned leather

[ScottEnglish]

Hello again.

I'm ready to make another pair of moccasins. So far I've been using chrome-tanned leather but I'm thinking of trying some vegetable-tanned leather for pair number four. They'll be unlined so I want to use thicker leather to prevent excessive stretching. I'll also be using the same piece of leather for the soling which I want to be reasonably thick. Consequently, I intend buying leather that is 8 to 9 ounce in thickness. I'm hoping I can wet the leather if necessary to make it more pliable during assembly.

What do folk think of this idea?

Scott

[Alaisiagae]

Veg tan is much more rigid than something like deerskin, which is very flexible and soft. Milled veg tan might work, it's fairly flexible.

[chuck123wapati]

8 oz will be pretty stiff for the uppers. Traditional mocs were made of Moose or Bison soles with deer or elk uppers. 

[Matt S]

I have a pair of boots with veg tanned uppers. I wouldn't recommend it, every time they get wet they dry hard. Even just foot sweat would be a problem I reckon.

[ScottEnglish]

Alaisiagae: Thanks for mentioning the milled vegetable-tanned leather. I'd not heard of that before.

chuck123wapati: Thanks for your reply too Chuck. I may be wrong, but I suspect that here in the UK moose, bison, deer, and elk leather is hard to obtain.

Matt S: Do you think Matt that your boots might become more supple with further use? I'm loath to give up on my idea. Thanks.

Thanks again to you all.

Scott

[Aven]

Scott, if you were to use the 8oz veg tan, you would have to pre-mould the bottom piece to get the tucks.  You can't sew them while it's wet, you'll cut through the leather.  If you really want to use veg tan, you might be able to get 3 - 4 oz to work.  Stiff leather boots will eventually get broken in if they are worn enough, but that doesn't always mean they will be comfortable.  I was issued two pairs of boots in basic.  We rotated the pairs, one day wearing one, the next the other.   The first day we wore them our drill sergeant made us get our boots wet and walk them dry.  First pair was like putting on slippers.  The other pair broke in so that the right one was pushing into my achilles tendon every time I flexed my foot.  I hated wearing those boots.  I couldn't wait until I could toss them and buy another pair.

Elk, deer and even bison are all native to Europe.  Have a look around, you might be surprised on what you find.  Water buffalo might be a good substitute for bison

[Matt S]

5 hours ago, ScottEnglish said:

Do you think Matt that your boots might become more supple with further use? I'm loath to give up on my idea. Thanks.

Maybe, but after many attempts at dubbining the snot out of them I've given up and they sit in the boot cupboard gathering dust these days. They're a pretty close copy of the US WW2 para boot and while they fit great (having moulded to my feet) the uppers just go rock hard, especially around the ankles. I've toyed with the idea of cutting them down to ankle height but they'd still be pretty stiff.

I don't know what the solution for this problem was "back in the day", if there was one. I suspect it's a combination of different boot styles, thinner/softer leather, lots of grease/pitch/tar, and boots/shoes with a shorter lifespan. As I'm sure you know native Americans brain tanned their hides (a type of tawing really) rather than veg tanning, which isn't so influenced by water. I'm not aware of any commercial brain tanning in the UK, but I do know that there are several hobbyists who do it if you want to try the stuff.

[chuck123wapati]

Yes as Matt said the native Americans tanned with the brain of the animal  harvested. I mentioned those different hides more so you could get a reference on the thickness of the hides used for each part of the moc. The bottoms were much heavier than the tops. If you've ever seen a pair of Mocs made traditionally they are very soft, thin and comfortable tops with heavy soles, each tribe had their own construction designs as well. the Apache even had a toe guard of rawhide for use in cactus. One thing to understand about older footwear is that they were cherished much more than now and native Americans  as well as other races would take them off and go barefoot before ruining them in mud or water.  Good luck with your project and look forward to some pictures!

[ScottEnglish]

Aven: Thanks for your response. I didn't realize wet leather is susceptible to damage. Makes sense really. I'll do some reading about different types of leather to see if I can find an alternative for my moccasins.

Matt S: Thanks for telling me more about your boots. Very helpful. I don't mind admitting my ignorance: I didn't know about brain-tanned leather. So thanks for that also.

Scott

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks Chuck. The information about the Native American moccasins is useful. I'm grateful. Looks like I'm going back to the drawing board!

Scott