Powder Dyes

[dduk]

Evening folks, long time lurker, first time poster!

I'm after some advice re powder dyes. I make mainly bridle leather dog ware (leads, collars, harnesses etc) and have been using feibings dyes for years. 

I've recently been looking at the powder dyes that Abbey flog and have seen a couple of different videos etc which seem to contradict each other on the mixing.

One recommends water and wallpaper paste, another recommends just methylated spirit, so I thought I'd ask the question to see what the learned many do.

I'm only looking at using it as an edge dye but I'm not sure what I should be mixing it with (quantities etc) in order to achieve a decent result. Any advice at all would be very welcome.

Cheers folks,

Spud.

 

 

[Matt S]

Both ways work, depends what you're after -- dissolve in meths for a spirit dye or diluted water-based glue for a colour-and-burnish all in one. Different glues give different effects and work differently on different leathers. If you want a water based edge dye dissolve it in water and a squirt of Fairy liquid to help penetration in greasy leather. I keep jars of burnishing mixture (water, fairy liquid, PVA glue, colour dye and a dedicated applicator) on the shelf, saves making the stuff up each time.

Want some to try out? I've got a big jarful of the black stuff, it'll last a lifetime. Can always stick some in the post to you.

[dduk]

That is amazing, cheers Matt and thanks for the offer of sticking some in the post.

To be honest, I think I'm going to order some anyway and have a play about with various mixtures to see what works, so hold off on the sample. I tend to dye my edges, then use beeswax to burnish, but if it can all be rolled into one, then happy days!

Do you use a 1:1 mix on the dye/glue, then add water to get the consistency? I'm guessing there will be a bit of trial and error. Does the glue/water mix go off over time, or is it fairly 'long life'?

Thanks again bud.

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, dduk said:

That is amazing, cheers Matt and thanks for the offer of sticking some in the post.

To be honest, I think I'm going to order some anyway and have a play about with various mixtures to see what works, so hold off on the sample. I tend to dye my edges, then use beeswax to burnish, but if it can all be rolled into one, then happy days!

Do you use a 1:1 mix on the dye/glue, then add water to get the consistency? I'm guessing there will be a bit of trial and error. Does the glue/water mix go off over time, or is it fairly 'long life'?

Thanks again bud.

No worries!

I usually take a mayonnaise jar and put a teaspoon of dye powder in the bottom, with exactly one large dollop of PVA glue. Fill most of the way with hot water and stir it well. Once it's cooled a little I put some of the mixture on a piece of leather and rub. If it doesn't shine within a few seconds of vigorous burnishing it needs more glue. If it dries before it shines I add more water. If it doesn't stain dark enough more dye powder. If it doesn't penetrate greasy leather (sits on the surface) it needs a little squirt of fairy. For a neutral or clear burnish skip the dye powder, of course. The mixture is usually noticeably thicker than water, but not a lot thicker. A bit thicker than whole milk, I guess, but thinner than single cream.

Burnishing will go much easier for you if you use glue-water than just beeswax, and it won't shag out so quickly with use. In fact (and I don't mean to be rude here) if you think you've been burnishing just rubbing beeswax onto the leather you'll be very pleasantly surprised with the difference!  It's handy for slicking slightly shaggy flesh side too.

In use I tend to shave the corners off, wet with burnishing compound, allow to soak in a few seconds, wipe off any excess then rub, focussing on a 4" short section at any one time. Your edge will go a little duller before it gets shiny, but persevere and at the stage it starts to grab the tool a little move onto the next section. If you find it's drying faster than you can rub, rewet. Once I've done the whole edge I take a look with light raking across the edge and if it needs another go I redo the above process before it fully dries (PVA is water resistant once it's dry). Then when I'm happy with the edge being smooth and hard I let it well alone to dry for at least a few hours. Then apply beeswax (with heat, a motorised wheel or just elbow grease so it penetrates well) than buff off the excess. Magic.

I like PVA because it works well, works fast, is inexpensive, and doesn't go moldy on the shelf nor smell bad. Just given the current batch a sniff and they're fine. Must be at least 6 months old.

Most water based glues work well, like I say they have slightly different effects. Wallpaper paste gives a slightly matt, non-shiny finish. Gum arabic is dead shiny but isn't very tough. Hide/rabbit glue gives an easy shine but goes rank in the jar a few days after mixing up and doesn't smell great even when fresh.

[dduk]

Thank you so much Matt, that is a great help. I'll be ordering some PVA tomorrow.

My usual burnishing reportoir is to rub the dyed edge with beeswax, then use my burnishing machine to do the hard work, occasionally using an edge slicker for the awkward bits. I've found that a beeswax coating, coupled with proper burnishing gives a nice result for my needs, finished with a brisk rubbing from an old pair of denim jeans. 

I used to dye, then use gum trag, then burnish, then beeswax, then a second burnish but  discovered one day that the end result was the same as if I'd just used dye and beeswax, burnishing just the once, so I skipped out the gum trag part. I do still use it occasionally if I need to smooth out a detailed flesh side, but that doesn't happen too often.

I'm guessing that the PVA does the same thing as the gum trag, as in keeping the fibres tight? The fact that the PVA and dye powder are mixed together would mean that it's an all in one solution?

Thanks again for your time and advice, as I mentioned I've not used powder dye before so I'm a complete novice in that sense.

Spud.

[Matt S]

51 minutes ago, dduk said:

Thank you so much Matt, that is a great help. I'll be ordering some PVA tomorrow.

My usual burnishing reportoir is to rub the dyed edge with beeswax, then use my burnishing machine to do the hard work, occasionally using an edge slicker for the awkward bits. I've found that a beeswax coating, coupled with proper burnishing gives a nice result for my needs, finished with a brisk rubbing from an old pair of denim jeans. 

I used to dye, then use gum trag, then burnish, then beeswax, then a second burnish but  discovered one day that the end result was the same as if I'd just used dye and beeswax, burnishing just the once, so I skipped out the gum trag part. I do still use it occasionally if I need to smooth out a detailed flesh side, but that doesn't happen too often.

I'm guessing that the PVA does the same thing as the gum trag, as in keeping the fibres tight? The fact that the PVA and dye powder are mixed together would mean that it's an all in one solution?

Thanks again for your time and advice, as I mentioned I've not used powder dye before so I'm a complete novice in that sense.

Spud.

No probs, Spud, always happy to help people where I can. I learned a lot from others, it's only fair to pay it along. I've come up with that sequence over the making of hundreds of bridle belts, always looking for a faster and longer lasting burnish. Always trying to improve. I also tend to use my burnishing machine for the donkey work of rubbing beeswax in, but have gone back to burnishing by hand as my machine runs so fast I sometimes burn the leather.

Yep, it's the same idea as gum trag, except it's cheaper, water resistant and actually works. Essentially yes you are sticking down the fibres but only once they've been burnished down by the burnishing if that makes sense. Think of it more like sealing the fibres in once they're smooth. Certainly don't rely on a swipe with the glue-water to stick down fuzzies or to takea  rough edge and make it smooth without work.

I use it as an all-in-one, but I know that some people prefer to dye as a separate stage. If I had a piece of leather that was tricky to get the dye-glue-water combo to penetrate I guess I might do it as a separate stage (maybe with alcohol base) but TBH I've got this pretty reliable and fast, I can't remember last time I got my dye jars out.

[dduk]

Matt,

Absolute game changer mate! Thank you so much for your advice.

I mixed up a jar today, took a little while to get the right shade, but wow, what a difference.

Adding the PVA Makes a hell of a difference to the finished edge and makes burnishing so much easier.

Cheers again bud, much appreciated.

Spud.

[Retswerb]

FYI for my fellow Americans who may be unaware as I was: fairy liquid is a brand of dish soap. I finally had to look it up. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Retswerb

[ljk]

I have been experimenting with Rit dye both in powder and liquid form. Did you know they

have formulas for hundred of colors, just by mixing a few colors. Most of my edge dying is

on Chrome for wallets and purses.  I use veg for shoe soling and of course dye and burnish

the edges.  The dye is very cheap and very concentrated.  The carrier whether water based

glues or synthetic mixes well with the powder. I use Mod Pog exterior. Titebond 3 or

Aleene's leather glues. They all have long shelf life vs. some of the other hyped glues.

I usually dye edges, let dry and burnish with bee's wax or gum t. Hope to have comments

on this?                tx lynn

 

[Matt S]

6 hours ago, dduk said:

Matt,

Absolute game changer mate! Thank you so much for your advice.

I mixed up a jar today, took a little while to get the right shade, but wow, what a difference.

Adding the PVA Makes a hell of a difference to the finished edge and makes burnishing so much easier.

Cheers again bud, much appreciated.

You're most welcome Spud, it came as a surprise to me too. Don't know why more people don't use it, it's been a common technique in the trade for years and works really well. It baffles me that so many people continue to use gum trag, but I suppose that's probably the Tandy/Al Stolhman effect! 

 

2 hours ago, Retswerb said:

FYI for my fellow Americans who may be unaware as I was: fairy liquid is a brand of dish soap. I finally had to look it up. 

Thanks for the translation @Retswerb, it's so common over here it completely slipped my mind that it's a genericised trademark like Tannoy or Kleenex. Yes just plain liquid dish soap.

 

 

1 hour ago, ljk said:

I have been experimenting with Rit dye both in powder and liquid form. Did you know they

have formulas for hundred of colors, just by mixing a few colors. Most of my edge dying is

on Chrome for wallets and purses.  I use veg for shoe soling and of course dye and burnish

the edges.  The dye is very cheap and very concentrated.  The carrier whether water based

glues or synthetic mixes well with the powder. I use Mod Pog exterior. Titebond 3 or

Aleene's leather glues. They all have long shelf life vs. some of the other hyped glues.

I usually dye edges, let dry and burnish with bee's wax or gum t. Hope to have comments

on this?                tx lynn

Lynn, that sounds great. I thin I'll try Titebond 3 a go, that should be even more waterproof!

[Retswerb]

8 hours ago, Matt S said:

Thanks for the translation @Retswerb, it's so common over here it completely slipped my mind that it's a genericised trademark like Tannoy or Kleenex. Yes just plain liquid dish soap.

Of course! I think I’ve seen that one before (maybe here) but couldn’t remember it. Off to google Tannoy now, at least I know what Kleenex is. 

[jcuk]

Sorry can't resist. Hands that do dishes 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4OiYGQAyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nvqLoEyofQ

 

JCUK

[Retswerb]

That was entertaining. At least I already knew that an eggplant isn’t an eggplant on your side of the pond before watching that video! 

[jcuk]

14 hours ago, Retswerb said:

That was entertaining. At least I already knew that an eggplant isn’t an eggplant on your side of the pond before watching that video! 

Are but do you know what Courgette is.

[Retswerb]

20 minutes ago, jcuk said:

Are but do you know what Courgette is.

Leave it to you Brits to use a French word when there’s a perfectly good Italian ‘zucchini‘ available 

Apologies to @dduk for hijacking your thread to drag through linguistic mud

[jcuk]

yes sorry for that too

[garypl]

On 10/14/2020 at 4:29 PM, Matt S said:

No worries!

I usually take a mayonnaise jar and put a teaspoon of dye powder in the bottom, with exactly one large dollop of PVA glue. Fill most of the way with hot water and stir it well. Once it's cooled a little I put some of the mixture on a piece of leather and rub. If it doesn't shine within a few seconds of vigorous burnishing it needs more glue. If it dries before it shines I add more water. If it doesn't stain dark enough more dye powder. If it doesn't penetrate greasy leather (sits on the surface) it needs a little squirt of fairy. For a neutral or clear burnish skip the dye powder, of course. The mixture is usually noticeably thicker than water, but not a lot thicker. A bit thicker than whole milk, I guess, but thinner than single cream.

Burnishing will go much easier for you if you use glue-water than just beeswax, and it won't shag out so quickly with use. In fact (and I don't mean to be rude here) if you think you've been burnishing just rubbing beeswax onto the leather you'll be very pleasantly surprised with the difference!  It's handy for slicking slightly shaggy flesh side too.

In use I tend to shave the corners off, wet with burnishing compound, allow to soak in a few seconds, wipe off any excess then rub, focussing on a 4" short section at any one time. Your edge will go a little duller before it gets shiny, but persevere and at the stage it starts to grab the tool a little move onto the next section. If you find it's drying faster than you can rub, rewet. Once I've done the whole edge I take a look with light raking across the edge and if it needs another go I redo the above process before it fully dries (PVA is water resistant once it's dry). Then when I'm happy with the edge being smooth and hard I let it well alone to dry for at least a few hours. Then apply beeswax (with heat, a motorised wheel or just elbow grease so it penetrates well) than buff off the excess. Magic.

I like PVA because it works well, works fast, is inexpensive, and doesn't go moldy on the shelf nor smell bad. Just given the current batch a sniff and they're fine. Must be at least 6 months old.

Most water based glues work well, like I say they have slightly different effects. Wallpaper paste gives a slightly matt, non-shiny finish. Gum arabic is dead shiny but isn't very tough. Hide/rabbit glue gives an easy shine but goes rank in the jar a few days after mixing up and doesn't smell great even when fresh.

Matt - I made up a batch using some aniline powder, wood glue and hot water.  Tried a Sample burnish and am very pleased with the results!  Thanks for posting this!

Gary

[Matt S]

23 hours ago, garypl said:

Matt - I made up a batch using some aniline powder, wood glue and hot water.  Tried a Sample burnish and am very pleased with the results!  Thanks for posting this!

Gary

You're very welcome Gary!