Bartack machines 269w, 469u, 1850

[ke6cvh]

Hello group, 

  I responded to an old thread and then today realized I might be better starting a new thread.  I've got the option to buy Singer 269w, Singer 469u, or Juki 1850 machines all around 300 dollars purchase price.  We already have a Juki lk1900bhs purchased new with low hours on it.  I'm working up to multiple production lines and also have many vintage machines.  For vintage the older Singer 69-8 is very appealing but not so easy to get.

  I've heard various stories about some of these machines.  I've heard that the Juki 1850 when it gets worn is not good anymore for heavy material tacking.  I've heard that parts are available for the 269w generic and possibly also the 469u.  I'm planning on buying two of these older machines and like the idea of two so I can compare them when working on them.  A wizard sent me the "un official" Singer manual for adjustment that is 27 pages long and I downloaded/printed the official manual which is longer.  I was told to follow the 27 page manual and can't go wrong adjusting the 269w.  

  So is it true that the 269w will still sew heavy when worn and the 1850 no longer can do this?  Not sure the differences in the 469u but I have to wonder if the steel is as good of quality.  1850's are going very low cost in the industrial area for sale where we live nearby to.  269w's are common but much older.  I was told in the early days of the denim wars the 469u was famous.  

  One mechanic told me here nobody is really using the 269w anymore for volume.  He is 45 years old working his adult life and hasn't touched a 269w since he was 18 saying around that time frame everyone went to Juki.

  I'll need to make a decision in the next few days and would really appreciate feedback.  We have complete and working machinery for 3 production lines with exception of the single bartack we have.  I cannot justify yet without being very successful getting another lk1900bhs even though they are such great machines.

  We are making mostly focused on work pants from denim and/or canvas but other canvas items are appealing as well for future products.  

  I did see comments about 42 stitch bartacks shredding belt loops.  I'm thinking that is synthetic materials and not denim as I was told 42 is pretty common.  However, I've also heard 28.  

 

Best regards,

Mike 

 

Edited to add a comment from an engineer friend who made the statement the biggest problem would be in excess clearance on the needle bar bushing when in the down position causing more skipped stitches.   Also, the 469 for sale is a 42 stitch.  One person with experience immediately said 42 stitches.  But back to the comment in another thread of 28 stitches shredding belt loops.  There is a file that exists circa 1990's of all equipment in a jeans production line.  This illustration is obviously pro-Singer as 100 percent of the equipment is Singer models.  On the bar tack there is a dual head  Machine Singer 569U3141-28H double-head mount for the corners of the pockets obviously 28h means 28 stitches heavy duty variant.  For the belt loops they have Singer 269U2149-28 also 28 stitches.  Not sure why they would go up to 42 stitches unless the later 469u machines that are available to me are able to sew with more precision and get away with 42 stitches.  I know with my Merrow break apart seam machines I need to use a cam of around 22 spi approximately or it shreds the material when synthetic.  However with denim I can use a sharps needle at much higher counts with good success.

Edited November 16, 2020 by ke6cvh
more information

[ke6cvh]

Hello Leatherworker group, 

  I had a typo in the comment meant to say others saying 42spi shredding the belt loops.  Again, my experience with some of the synthetics is a stitch count that high will perforate the material until it rips too easily but 100 percent cotton woven can handle it.  I spoke again to the mechanic here.  He worked for Wrangler and two other big brand jeans factories.  He said that they were using a high stitch count but would put ticket 50 in the needle and ticket 120 (really small stuff) in the bobbin and that is how they would be able to do it.  Some of theirs was 60spi with the smaller threads  on denim belt loops.  One of the reasons the 1850 has issues with thick material he said is that the foot pressure is not as high and wears out.  I see new parts for the 1850 on that famous auction site and that assembly with the presser is one of them now available generic common.  The 269w's have a much higher presser he said and manual (like a car with manual steering or brakes).  If used it would be at a work station where someone is standing to pass the pants around and they always put a man on it and even then at the end of the day by 5pm always complaining because of the added physical activity.  This is very high volume work obviously for hours or full day shift.  So with all that said is the 469u really that good or does anyone know?  I know the 269w will have exceptional high quality steel in it's parts but cannot speak for the durability of the 469u and if it has the same attributes as the 269w or not.  I was told that the 469u and the 1850 are much different machines.  I'm leaning towards the 469u but part of me wants to get the 269w's it is just a big unknown I'm hoping someone can clarify on.  Oh, forgot to mention he has experience with the 1850's as well and said I'd have a headache if I bought one heavily used.  This is the same thing I heard regarding the 1850's from the other mechanic (who was his mentor and passed on a couple years ago but he gave me a little bit of training).

Best regards,

Mike

Edited November 16, 2020 by ke6cvh
more information

[ke6cvh]

Hello group,

  I got a reply directly back from an email info request I sent out yesterday so am sharing what I found.  The 469u was only made for a short time and not common in USA.  The 269 series was made for a long time with parts available both generic and original it seems.  The "un official" Singer adjustment manual that is 27 pages long is the real ticket to owning and maintaining the machine it seems and must be followed exactly (I've now heard this from two sources).  The kind gent who took the time responding has told me he has converted several machines to air lift negating the issue with fatigue when used for long periods of time.  So, I'm sold.....it'll be 269's with our single and exceptionally expensive lk1900bhs that can do programmable tacking.  It will be worthwhile to learn the adjustments of the 269 since I'm not high volume and cannot justify the new purchase of a second lk1900.  

Best regards,

Mike

[nylonRigging]

There are several of old 269's sitting around here in the NW. US. area . so parts are not to hard source. the NW was a pretty big outdoor gear, clothing manufacturing area at one time, we are blessed with a lot of old machines around and some good repair Tech's that are still breathing.
the old 269 run fast and 'loud' , I don't think you can get them to cycle the stitch run slower ( guessing 1700 rpm ? ) I think that what factory recommends.
my 269w is a ( 28 stitch) . the pneumatic set-up on it is pretty standard simple also.  it just a single peddle, with heal-Down for pressfoot Up, and then tap the toe to top of peddle to start the cycle . Has good high lift on foot . and mine is using 135x5 needle, with 69E . Good machine is you not doing high volume production.

The only pain in the ass with it I ever had, was always the thread cutter and it always was giving me fits.  So it is No More and parts are laying in the drawer .
.

[ke6cvh]

Hi NylonRigging, 

    Many thanks for the reply.  I have multiple sources I can get a 269w from in country.  I was just told the cam is solid fiber?  I also saw a different forum where the person posted and talked about replacing with a Camatron fiber cam.  This is the giant one that is vertical on the side for a model 69 and horizontal under the bed for a 269.  Actually, this surprised me.  If true doe these wear out?  I'm really shocked if it has a solid fiber cam and if so what is the "mileage" on one of these before too worn.

 

Best regards,

Mike

[nylonRigging]

4 hours ago, ke6cvh said:

Hi NylonRigging, 

    Many thanks for the reply.  I have multiple sources I can get a 269w from in country.  I was just told the cam is solid fiber?  I also saw a different forum where the person posted and talked about replacing with a Camatron fiber cam.  This is the giant one that is vertical on the side for a model 69 and horizontal under the bed for a 269.  Actually, this surprised me.  If true doe these wear out?  I'm really shocked if it has a solid fiber cam and if so what is the "mileage" on one of these before too worn.

 

Best regards,

Mike

Ya the 269's cam 'fly wheel' underside horizontal is some type of lightweight composite, ( not sure exact materials ? ) ..  but I been told a few times by tech's that Singer was Way Ahead of there time back then when designing that lightweight wheel .
People don't think much these days on all the high-tech. lightweight composites out in year 2020 at there fingertip's for prefabbing an idea . from Poly's, Ti , carbon fiber ...etc. ' .  but back then It must have been a huge hurtle to get over with a wheel that large diameter and weight, spinning that fast on the stitch cycle, and then trying to stop the weight inertia . That is what Singer came up with and a huge % of them are still spinning and stitching today 60-70 years latter.
.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Singer 269W, 469 and Juki 1850?

 

I can't think of three machine models that are more difficult to find service, parts and support at this point.

Robert at Camatron can speak for himself, but we both threw away dozens of 269s machines a long time ago.

[ke6cvh]

OK some background on the 269w.  First I wanted to get a 69-8 for vintage reason(s) below.  I have a mechanic that can work on the 269w's but it has been many years since he touched one.  I'm fairly certain I can get parts for simple things on the 269w.  We have a new LK-1900BHS but it is in our studio adjoining the house and all I have to do is look at the CCTV as well as out the window to see it there.  We have a dog on other side and double roll up/heavy iron lockable doors.  Our production line is a different story.  The one down below is screened for great ventilation (and easy theft).  I'd rather take a chance on a 269w and can get them for around 300USD in working condition which is around 1/10th the price of a new 1900bhs.  Also, we have quite a bit of vintage machines (one of the reasons the 69 class such as 69-8 was my first choice).  The 69w is unobtanium here.  1850s are everywhere here and I won't touch them because I've been told by the mechanic what a headache they are.  Alignment of the 269w is the real problem and requires a wizard level skill set that can follow the 27 page essential alignment guide without a single deviation to exact steps.  I don't have such an alignment guide for the 1850.  This will just be for pants, not rigging, and  likely anything special will be done in the studio on the 1900bhs where it sits safe and secure.  The 69 class looks to me much slower but I'm just guessing much easier to maintain as long as parts can be had but that is just a guess.  Same mechanic can align a Reece 101 and 104 keyhole with blindfolds on practically....it is nothing short of amazing to see the magic he works when in action.  I'm willing to go with a 42 stitch with smaller thread and needle but also 28 would work.  

 

Best regards,

Mike

[ke6cvh]

  Looks like I'll have a 269w here soon enough.  I know for older Reece 101 and 104 it is not uncommon to have a machine that had done in excess of 1 million keyholes.  We have three here working like a champ and all made in USA (104's AMF Reece).  My tech was working on his last job with a 101 that was exceptionally old and seen very heavy use it's entire life (several decades of use on a production line).  They were making 2k pairs a week and that was only while he was the steward of the machine in it's long operational life.  He was able to keep that machine going and going and going enough to make the energizer bunny look like a snail.  The 269w may be not quite in the same league but they are available here with proper maintenance manual, my mechanic has experience on them.  

  This machine is equivalent 360 dollars.  Seller is putting a fresh paint job on it and now common here is to send some parts off for re chroming which they are doing with some parts on this machine.  Price includes table and motor.  Delivery is equivalent 40 USD.  The plan is to get maybe 3 or 4 of them going in the two production lines with the real gem, lk1900bhs, sitting proud and happy in the studio under good security and limited access to those only who are supposed to be there.

  Soon enough I'll run air lines from our main compressor to branch out to the two production line locations which each will have their own tank.  From that I'll  have LP air into the production line for easy cleaning.  Also....I will DIY an air assist for the pedal.  Found someone on youtube that is taking the gas assist cylinders for hatchbacks, drilling them out, and converting them to an air assist (for a different application than machines).  For the air valve he is hacking a hand operated cleaner for LP air.  I might not do this first but it's in the plan to do to reduce operator fatigue in case I double up or increase the spring clamping pressure.

  Most don't have the luxury of having a master mechanic around to train and assist in maintenance and if I didn't I'd be tightening my belt to buy another lk1900 then not sleeping as well concerned over theft.  I've met enough that are good at maintaining them to feel confident in the purchases.  If I'm lucky and digest the training I'll also be able to be, I hope, one of the few who can brave the 27 page "essential alignment guide" exactly step by step to keep em tuned up and running.

  Look like for most woven cotton denim work here it was 42 stitch machines with 28 for lighter synthetic materials.  They use a smaller needle as well on this.

 

Best regards,

Mike

[nylonRigging]

17 hours ago, ke6cvh said:

I'd be tightening my belt to buy another lk1900 then not sleeping as well concerned over theft. 

Tough Neighborhood  ??? ... LOL

-

 

[Constabulary]

a 42 stitch bar tacker is what I´m looking for as well but unfortunately space is limited and to be honest with my self the number of tacks is "limited" as well . I´m using a ZZ machine - that works okay.

[regius]

On 11/23/2020 at 4:53 AM, ke6cvh said:

  Looks like I'll have a 269w here soon enough.  I know for older Reece 101 and 104 it is not uncommon to have a machine that had done in excess of 1 million keyholes.  We have three here working like a champ and all made in USA (104's AMF Reece).  My tech was working on his last job with a 101 that was exceptionally old and seen very heavy use it's entire life (several decades of use on a production line).  They were making 2k pairs a week and that was only while he was the steward of the machine in it's long operational life.  He was able to keep that machine going and going and going enough to make the energizer bunny look like a snail.  The 269w may be not quite in the same league but they are available here with proper maintenance manual, my mechanic has experience on them.  

  This machine is equivalent 360 dollars.  Seller is putting a fresh paint job on it and now common here is to send some parts off for re chroming which they are doing with some parts on this machine.  Price includes table and motor.  Delivery is equivalent 40 USD.  The plan is to get maybe 3 or 4 of them going in the two production lines with the real gem, lk1900bhs, sitting proud and happy in the studio under good security and limited access to those only who are supposed to be there.

  Soon enough I'll run air lines from our main compressor to branch out to the two production line locations which each will have their own tank.  From that I'll  have LP air into the production line for easy cleaning.  Also....I will DIY an air assist for the pedal.  Found someone on youtube that is taking the gas assist cylinders for hatchbacks, drilling them out, and converting them to an air assist (for a different application than machines).  For the air valve he is hacking a hand operated cleaner for LP air.  I might not do this first but it's in the plan to do to reduce operator fatigue in case I double up or increase the spring clamping pressure.

  Most don't have the luxury of having a master mechanic around to train and assist in maintenance and if I didn't I'd be tightening my belt to buy another lk1900 then not sleeping as well concerned over theft.  I've met enough that are good at maintaining them to feel confident in the purchases.  If I'm lucky and digest the training I'll also be able to be, I hope, one of the few who can brave the 27 page "essential alignment guide" exactly step by step to keep em tuned up and running.

  Look like for most woven cotton denim work here it was 42 stitch machines with 28 for lighter synthetic materials.  They use a smaller needle as well on this.

 

Best regards,

>>>>>>>> Mike, may I ask where you are based that you have such a rich supply of mechanics who knows Reece machines?  I'm from the new york area I wonder if there's any establishment here that has such a machine I can go in and pay to put eyelet/keyhole button holes on my products. Or, if I decided to buy one, if there's any mechanics around here. Dematron in Dallas offer video conference maintenance help, I think it's a brilliant idea. 

 

On 11/23/2020 at 4:53 AM, ke6cvh said:

Mike