hand tools leather2

[Leather2]

Hello, I am new to this form, and need some advise as to which brand of tools I should get.

I have never leather worked, but it is very intriguing and I want to make some knife sheaths, and maybe later some bags and wallets.

From what I read, I will want an stitching wheel, a groover, an edger, a scratch awl, needles, and a burnisher. I already have a mallet, a xacto knife, and a surface to work on.

It seems like Tandy’s hand tools are not quality anymore, and wanted advise to see if these tools are good:

kyoshin elle pro edge creaser and groover

kyoshin elle pro stitching wheel(all sizes included)

Rocky Mountain Diamond awl

 Kyoshin elle pro grooved edger #2

John James needles(I don’t know what size to get and don’t understand what thread size either, pleeeaaase help)

Tandy’s wood burnisher(seems like this tool of Tandy’s would be fine?)

Thank you in advance.

leather2

[PastorBob]

Welcome to the forum!  Leather tools are just like any other tools; you can buy cheap or you can buy top of the line.  For some non-leather projects, I buy tools from harbor freight.  For others, Craftsman (when they were decent).  Same with leatherworking tools for me.  To me, a edge slicker is an edge slicker.  I started out with a cheap tandy swivel knife, but have since upgraded to a Barry King.  I started out with Tandy edge bevelers and even tried some from Amazon, but ended up buying a set from Weaver Leather.  They work great.  Same with stitching forks.  Some folks say just buy the best up front and save yourself the trouble of having multiple buys.  I have done this too and end up with a pricey tool that I don't use very often.  Starting out, I wasn't sure if it would be something I stuck with long term.  I have been playing around with leather for 3 years now.  Still a hobby.  But I have noticed, with better tools, the craftsmanship and quality are much better.  The sad part is, I know folks who could make beautiful items with the same cheap tools where I couldn't.  

Some common names of good tools are:

Weaver Leather

Barry King

John James Needles - several articles on here for that including thread to use as well.

Makers Leather Supply - for templates, patterns, etc.

[Leather2]

Thank you PastorBob,

Thank you for your reply, would you recommend me to start out with a less expensive tool like Tandy’s?

[PastorBob]

1 minute ago, Leather2 said:

Thank you PastorBob,

Thank you for your reply, would you recommend me to start out with a less expensive tool like Tandy’s?

That is what I did.  Just to get started.  You may find that you don't care much for it, and have little invested if you decide it's not for you.

[Leather2]

Thank you.

I have heard bad things about Tandy’s new cutting tools dulling quickly, are there any Tandy tools I should avoid?

[Leather2]

Are you referring to Tandy’s tools as the Craftool brand they carry or TandyPro brand?
Thanks again 

[mike02130]

You listed a decent budget friendly starting set up for making sheaths.  You did some home work.  I suggest you eliminate the stitching wheel and get a set of Japanese style stitching chisels.  I bought the same awl and the ferrule and blade came off the first time I used it.  RML sells a Vergez Blanchard diamond awl at a good price and after polishing the blade it will work well for you.  John James 004 are small and 002 are large.  Buy some good thread and you're all set to go.  You may as well order everything from Rocky Mountain Leather.  They don't carry junk and have free shipping.

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/view-all-tools/products/economy-scratch-compass-wing-divider

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/view-all-tools/products/kyoshin-elle-diamond-pricking-irons-3mm-4mm-5mm?variant=9280401667

Get the 2 and 6 tooth.

[fredk]

2 hours ago, Leather2 said:

I have never leather worked, but it is very intriguing and I want to make some knife sheaths, and maybe later some bags and wallets.

From what I read, I will want an stitching wheel, a groover, an edger, a scratch awl, needles, and a burnisher. I already have a mallet, a xacto knife, and a surface to work on.

 

1. get a couple of better knives. a. minimum of a box cutter/utility type knife and a box of blades, and  b. a rotary blade knife of 45 or 60mm diameter

example of 

a 

b 

also get a set of wing dividers

 

 

[Leather2]

50 minutes ago, mike02130 said:

You listed a decent budget friendly starting set up for making sheaths.  You did some home work.  I suggest you eliminate the stitching wheel and get a set of Japanese style stitching chisels.  I bought the same awl and the ferrule and blade came off the first time I used it.  RML sells a Vergez Blanchard diamond awl at a good price and after polishing the blade it will work well for you.  John James 004 are small and 002 are large.  Buy some good thread and you're all set to go.  You may as well order everything from Rocky Mountain Leather.  They don't carry junk and have free shipping.

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/view-all-tools/products/economy-scratch-compass-wing-divider

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/view-all-tools/products/kyoshin-elle-diamond-pricking-irons-3mm-4mm-5mm?variant=9280401667

Get the 2 and 6 tooth.

Thank you! 
I am curious to know why you would skip a stitching wheel, and go for stitching chisels. From what I have seen stitching wheels are used for long stitch seams as well as curves, Am I missing something?

leather2

[fredk]

1 hour ago, Leather2 said:

I am curious to know why you would skip a stitching wheel, and go for stitching chisels. From what I have seen stitching wheels are used for long stitch seams as well as curves, Am I missing something?

One less step. Get stitching chisels, sharpen and polish them and they'll make your stitching holes in thinnish leather in one job, - no marking and then carefully piercing with the stitching awl. Also, in my case, I find it hard to see where the marks are, especially on dark leather

[Leather2]

Thank you.

[mike02130]

3 hours ago, Leather2 said:

I am curious to know why you would skip a stitching wheel, and go for stitching chisels. From what I have seen stitching wheels are used for long stitch seams as well as curves, Am I missing something?

Watch some you tube videos, very few makers use them.  There are some old-timers and saddle makers here that I think use them.  They prick a mark then you make each hole with an awl.  It is laborious and takes some practice.  Stitching chisels and pricking irons  are used following a line made with a wing divider.  The two prong chisel one is used for going around curves while the six prong chisel one is for straight runs.  I suppose one advantage of the wheel is that it is cheaper to use different sized wheels and one awl rather than buying multiple chisels.  Also when making holes in a saddle you don't have the advantage of it being flat on a bench and are able to hammer the the holes.

I prefer pricking irons over the chisels.  They are measured differently.  Irons are measured from center to center of each tooth and chisels are measured between each tooth.  For sheaths go with the chisels.  If you start making bags and wallets you will probably want to invest in finer tools, in both size and quality.  Most of my work is 9/10 holes per inch.  Let's just say a wallet has a 16" perimeter x 10 =160 holes.  That is a lot of awl work.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by mike02130
clarification

[Leather2]

Thank you mike02130,

going back to what you said on needles, how do I choose correct thread for the needle size? Thanks again.

[mike02130]

1 hour ago, Leather2 said:

Thank you mike02130,

going back to what you said on needles, how do I choose correct thread for the needle size? Thanks again.

What size holes are you making, how thick is your leather and what size thread will you be using?  Figure what you're going to make and the thickness of the leather.  Most likely 004 small.  First thing is to figure what your hole punching tool is going to be.  Don't put the cart before the horse, they don't push well.

[Leather2]

43 minutes ago, mike02130 said:

What size holes are you making, how thick is your leather and what size thread will you be using?  Figure what you're going to make and the thickness of the leather.  Most likely 004 small.  First thing is to figure what your hole punching tool is going to be.  Don't put the cart before the horse, they don't push well.

Sorry, I’ll planing to make knife sheaths out of 8oz veg tan. I’m planing to use the awl you recommended which is 2mm at the widest point. Not sure what size of waxed thread I will use(doesn’t depend on the needle size?). Thanks again for all your help

[mike02130]

3 hours ago, Leather2 said:

Sorry, I’ll planing to make knife sheaths out of 8oz veg tan. I’m planing to use the awl you recommended which is 2mm at the widest point. Not sure what size of waxed thread I will use(doesn’t depend on the needle size?). Thanks again for all your help

You're getting out of my range.  I make women's purses and wallets using leather split at .5mm up to 4 ounce (doubled to 8oz.).  There are other thick leather guys here with better knowledge and experience.  I will tell you what I would use but there may be other needles and threads that the pros use that I'm not aware of.

So, 8 ounce times 2=16 ounce (1/4")  What about a welt?  The needle depends on the thread size.  For that thickness I would think the thread should be .08 to 1mm with  a John James 002 big needle.  Order the awl, needles and Ritza Tiger thread from RMLS.  The awl is going to take some work before penetrating that leather.  You will have to polish the blade and maybe touch up the point.

Have you searched "leather sheaths" on YouTube?  

I'm guessing that you do not know how to saddle stitch?  Can't make much without that knowledge.  Gotta figure that one out first.

[Leather2]

Thank you, this exactly what I needed to know! Thank you everybody, especially mike02130 for all your help. 

I am excited to start going!

[tsunkasapa]

11 hours ago, Leather2 said:

Thank you! 
I am curious to know why you would skip a stitching wheel, and go for stitching chisels. From what I have seen stitching wheels are used for long stitch seams as well as curves, Am I missing something?

leather2

I only use the stitching wheels, don't even own any chisels. Using an awl is no more "laborious" than doing all those holes with a chisel. It does take some practice to learn to finesse it, but it is really quite simple if you have a sharp awl. And some sort of stitching "clamp" is indispensable.

[fredk]

16 hours ago, Leather2 said:

Hello, I am new to this form, and need some advise as to which brand of tools I should get.

I have never leather worked, but it is very intriguing and I want to make some knife sheaths, and maybe later some bags and wallets.

budget for a stitching pony or clamp

[Klara]

Another vote for the stitching clamp/saddlers clam/stitching pony. There's videos on YouTube on how to make one (if you have (access to) a reasonably equipped wood workshop, making a stitching pony is a lot faster than waiting for delivery. And cheaper.)

In a pinch a vise on your work table might do. But you need a way to hold the leather in position while you use both hands for stitching. Once you have that, working with a stitching wheel and awl just needs practice. For your very first pieces, you dont even need the wheel  - you could mark the holes for the stitches with your scratch awl (or any other pointy object) and a ruler.

Regarding needles and thread size: John James 002 isn't big. JJ 2/0 is big... My local shop has tables on its site for optimum needle/thread combinations https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488 It's in French, but have a look around the web sites of your suppliers, they might have the info on there.

Needles are cheap, you can buy several sizes (is there any retailer who makes packages of 5 needles in each of the 5 sizes?) Thread is more expensive, but good thread is worth every cent!

Do you have Al Stohlman's book on Handsewing Leather? It's brilliant! 

My take on tool quality: If I have experience with a tool and know for sure I will use it often, I buy good or even top quality (cordless drills come to mind - the third one was finally a Makita). For starting out, not. Yes, you can easily sell top quality, but I hate selling... 

Anything that has a cutting edge (knives, but also diamond awls, edgers, groovers) needs to be maintained. You'll want to buy some polishing/honing paste/jewellers rouge and make a strop for your first project (even xacto blades are improved by stropping, though I still hate them for most purposes). If you can sharpen tools, you can greatly improve cheaply bought ones, if you can't, even the most expensive tool will use its edge. 

Incidentally, I believe that Osborne awls are just as good as Vergez Blanchard, if not better (or at least harder). The VB blade is the one that got a bent tip without dropping on the ground, the Osborne was relatively fine even after falls (then I learned from an old post here about a safety line for the awl: Drill a hole through the handle, attach a loop which you put your hand through. Saves on sharpening as you'll no longer drop the awl.)

 

 

[Klara]

Just checked: Rocky Mountain Leather Supply do indicate which thread to use with which needle size. 

But I take back the bit about needles being cheap - that was based on what I pay in France. For once we have it better

Edited May 28, 2021 by Klara
added info

[Leather2]

8 hours ago, Klara said:

Another vote for the stitching clamp/saddlers clam/stitching pony. There's videos on YouTube on how to make one (if you have (access to) a reasonably equipped wood workshop, making a stitching pony is a lot faster than waiting for delivery. And cheaper.)

In a pinch a vise on your work table might do. But you need a way to hold the leather in position while you use both hands for stitching. Once you have that, working with a stitching wheel and awl just needs practice. For your very first pieces, you dont even need the wheel  - you could mark the holes for the stitches with your scratch awl (or any other pointy object) and a ruler.

Regarding needles and thread size: John James 002 isn't big. JJ 2/0 is big... My local shop has tables on its site for optimum needle/thread combinations https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488 It's in French, but have a look around the web sites of your suppliers, they might have the info on there.

Needles are cheap, you can buy several sizes (is there any retailer who makes packages of 5 needles in each of the 5 sizes?) Thread is more expensive, but good thread is worth every cent!

Do you have Al Stohlman's book on Handsewing Leather? It's brilliant! 

My take on tool quality: If I have experience with a tool and know for sure I will use it often, I buy good or even top quality (cordless drills come to mind - the third one was finally a Makita). For starting out, not. Yes, you can easily sell top quality, but I hate selling... 

Anything that has a cutting edge (knives, but also diamond awls, edgers, groovers) needs to be maintained. You'll want to buy some polishing/honing paste/jewellers rouge and make a strop for your first project (even xacto blades are improved by stropping, though I still hate them for most purposes). If you can sharpen tools, you can greatly improve cheaply bought ones, if you can't, even the most expensive tool will use its edge. 

Incidentally, I believe that Osborne awls are just as good as Vergez Blanchard, if not better (or at least harder). The VB blade is the one that got a bent tip without dropping on the ground, the Osborne was relatively fine even after falls (then I learned from an old post here about a safety line for the awl: Drill a hole through the handle, attach a loop which you put your hand through. Saves on sharpening as you'll no longer drop the awl.)

 

 

So what size needle and thread would you recommend for making a knife sheath out of 8 oz leather?

[Klara]

No idea. I just made a dog collar with a needle size 002 and a linen thread 18/3, diameter 0.6 mm. Worked very well, but the leather is much thinner than you are planning to use (it's a show collar). You could choose thicker thread, with a bigger needle. It's a question of personal taste, almost anything goes. 

As long as you don't try to sew fine gloves with 1 mm thread or a saddle with very thin thread....

[Leather2]

Thank you Klara, that makes since

[Klara]

By the way, as I was working with chrome-tanned leather which doesn't mark well with wing dividers I drew my stitching line with a pen (special leather marker) and ruler (and a bit freehand in the curves), and it might be my best line yet... Meaning that you could even skip the wing dividers/groover for the moment if your budget is tight.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Klara