Spyros Report post Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, chuck123wapati said: Really? then why even ask the question you have made it a moot point? the word Truth is as ambiguous and personal as handmade. What do you mean mate, I don't follow... I wasn't trying to make a point, and not everybody cares about customers (I certainly dont), I just had a philosophical question that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Frodo said: I believe Chuck brought this point up in the last discussion on this topic the only true hand made leather items were made by the Indians who killed, tanned and sewn the skin with the aid of ZERO machines they made everything from the knives to the needles. Machines were not involved i believe i did say that, so the new mallet i am making, i killed an elk drug it out of the mountains skinned, scraped, and dried the hide for the head cut the tree down for the handle drilled it with a drill press turned the whole thing on my lathe and assembled it, added some brass or steel washers. What do i have? a handmade mallet? or one just like you can buy from tandy? How would i advertise it for sale without being called a liar or cheat? l Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frodo Report post Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) I believe the word that would be correct is ''custom" I would personally call it handmade but the word custom would be more a accurate term according to webster. hand made means with out machinery Edited June 9, 2021 by Frodo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Spyros said: (I certainly dont), nuff said there ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spyros Report post Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, chuck123wapati said: nuff said there ! I still don't understand you. Is this a website only for people who sell stuff? Does every discussion has to revolve around sales? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Frodo said: I believe the word that would be correct is ''custom" I would personally call it handmade but the word custom would be more a accurate term according to webster. hand made means with out machinery custom would work very well. Maybe hand crafted? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frodo Report post Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) This is handmade I watch his old man and marvel at his skill Edited June 9, 2021 by Frodo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spyros Report post Posted June 9, 2021 A human-powered machine is still a machine Webster said no machines Lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Spyros said: I still don't understand you. Is this a website only for people who sell stuff? Does every discussion has to revolve around sales? no its not and no it doesn't in your case but in mine and others who have responded it does. you should have been clearer and said I don't sell my stuff so I don't care, instead it didn't sound very well imo. in the end however it still is the decision of whom ever see's it or you talk about it with or give it to that will decide if they think your works is truly handmade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Spyros said: A human-powered machine is still a machine Webster said no machines Lol webster said this, so what is a hand process? Definition of handmade: made by hand or by a hand process Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spyros Report post Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said: webster said this, so what is a hand process? Definition of handmade: made by hand or by a hand process What does that mean? Can we use tools? Machines? What if it's a man powered machine, like a press? I don't understand where is the cutoff point exactly. Is it the use of electricity? So if you make everything manually but then you do a crease with an electric creasing machine you're disqualified? If I use a pc & printer to print a pattern? Am I allowed to turn the lights on or does it have to be candlelight? Edited June 9, 2021 by Spyros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carnivore Report post Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Frodo said: I believe Chuck brought this point up in the last discussion on this topic the only true hand made leather items were made by the Indians who killed, tanned and sewn the skin with the aid of ZERO machines they made everything from the knives to the needles. Machines were not involved To be totally handmade they would have had to have killed the deer by hand ie: throttled it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klara Report post Posted June 9, 2021 Actually, what "handmade" conjures in my mind is that the item has been made by one person. Who possibly used a machine at some point... I'm a member of an Artisan's Association (as a dyer, spinner, weaver and knitter - and yes, I do have my own flock of sheep) - we all sell hand-made products, but I use a drum carder and spinning wheel, the tailor a sewing machine, quite possibly also the guy who makes handbags from chrome-tanned leathers, certainly the lady who makes bags from fabric and recycled leather garments. The common point is that we start with raw materials (not kits!) and use our skill to make something from them. Also it is our decision what to make and how to make it. That's not the dictionary definition, but it's what I think when I read hand-made. Unless I go to IKEA and see a ceiling-high stack of "hand-made" baskets. Then I'm thinking of exploited workers in some faraway country getting paid pennies for a day's work... (though there's still a good chance that one basket was made by one worker) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Carnivore said: To be totally handmade they would have had to have killed the deer by hand ie: throttled it. If they made thier bows and arrows? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Spyros said: What does that mean? Can we use tools? Machines? What if it's a man powered machine, like a press? I don't understand where is the cutoff point exactly. Is it the use of electricity? So if you make everything manually but then you do a crease with an electric creasing machine you're disqualified? If I use a pc & printer to print a pattern? Am I allowed to turn the lights on or does it have to be candlelight? I don't know what that means but it is the crux of the question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Klara said: Actually, what "handmade" conjures in my mind is that the item has been made by one person. Who possibly used a machine at some point... I'm a member of an Artisan's Association (as a dyer, spinner, weaver and knitter - and yes, I do have my own flock of sheep) - we all sell hand-made products, but I use a drum carder and spinning wheel, the tailor a sewing machine, quite possibly also the guy who makes handbags from chrome-tanned leathers, certainly the lady who makes bags from fabric and recycled leather garments. The common point is that we start with raw materials (not kits!) and use our skill to make something from them. Also it is our decision what to make and how to make it. That's not the dictionary definition, but it's what I think when I read hand-made. Unless I go to IKEA and see a ceiling-high stack of "hand-made" baskets. Then I'm thinking of exploited workers in some faraway country getting paid pennies for a day's work... (though there's still a good chance that one basket was made by one worker) So what say does your customer have? In the end its really them who decide if your work is handmade isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted June 9, 2021 14 hours ago, Spyros said: Yeah, why not? The fact that an even more manual process exists (hand stitching), doesn't make running a sewing machine any less of a manual process that requires good hand-eye coordination, practice, knowledge and natural dexterity. Besides, stitching (whether manual or machine) is only one part of the process of making a bag or a wallet, there are many more as you know, and they are manual. Based on the number of threads here regarding problems with sewing machines, tension, speed, etc. I have come to the conclusion that hand stitching is a good choice for me. Of course I am a hobbyist, so that matters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 9, 2021 5 hours ago, Spyros said: What does that mean? Can we use tools? Machines? What if it's a man powered machine, like a press? I don't understand where is the cutoff point exactly. Is it the use of electricity? So if you make everything manually but then you do a crease with an electric creasing machine you're disqualified? If I use a pc & printer to print a pattern? Am I allowed to turn the lights on or does it have to be candlelight? To me the term hand process means hand sewn not machine sewn, hand cut not clicker cut, hand dyed not factory dyed, hand tooled not embossed with a wheel, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LatigoAmigo Report post Posted June 9, 2021 @Spyros Why do people say "handmade"? Because it is a handy marketing term that implies quality construction with attention to detail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klara Report post Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, chuck123wapati said: So what say does your customer have? In the end its really them who decide if your work is handmade isn't it? My customer can buy or not buy, they cannot tell me how to do my work. Incidentally, my labels state the fibre composition and handspun/handknitted/handwoven, whatever applies... I've just thought of Peter Collingwood, world-famous English weaver, who hated the whole handmade hype and in an interview said something like: "Of course it's handwoven, I'm not working with my feet!" Edited June 10, 2021 by Klara Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted June 10, 2021 Weaving with your feet would be quite a feat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Klara said: , they cannot tell me how to do my work. you may have misunderstood the question it was about what they thought your work was, handmade or not, and if the opinion of those people who buy your stuff mattered? Not trying to argue at all just wondering how folks feel about those who buy or use their stuff. It is more of a question of ethics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klara Report post Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) I believe I still don't understand your question: Ethics? If people talk to me they realize that my stuff is hand-made (because then I can explain that the wool comes from my sheep, that the only thing I don't do myself is the shearing, but I sort, wash, dye, card and spin the wool and then use this yarn for knitting or weaving the final product which I've designed myself.) If people just look they may not realize things are hand-made because they "look too good". Though in most markets (not the big Christmas one, sadly) I'm sitting at my spinning wheel and working while waiting for customers, that helps. Edited June 10, 2021 by Klara Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted June 10, 2021 46 minutes ago, Klara said: I believe I still don't understand your question: Ethics? If people talk to me they realize that my stuff is hand-made (because then I can explain that the wool comes from my sheep, that the only thing I don't do myself is the shearing, but I sort, wash, dye, card and spin the wool and then use this yarn for knitting or weaving the final product which I've designed myself.) If people just look they may not realize things are hand-made because they "look too good". Though in most markets (not the big Christmas one, sadly) I'm sitting at my spinning wheel and working while waiting for customers, that helps. Not necessarily you or your products but in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tugadude Report post Posted June 10, 2021 I think there's another factor to take into account and that is the fact that marketing has ruined some words due to misuse or abuse. Does "new and improved" indicate the previous product was "old and crappy"? Or just not quite so good? Genuine leather is something we've discussed here at length. Just what does the average, uninitiated consumer believe that means? Regardless of the actual meaning. So handmade does indeed mean different things to different people, and when used inappropriately clouds the issue even further. I bought a bag of chips the other day at a local gas station. The gas station was recently rebuilt, completely. Before the construction I could buy the same product and the bag was heavier and cheaper than what they are selling today. So now I'm paying more for less. There's a name for this trend, shrinkflation. Here's a recent report on it... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grocery-prices-rise-supermarkets/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites