Punches vs Diamond Tips for sewing

[Boicie]

Total n00b questions but, frankly, which is better? Punches or those Diamond Tips?

From what I can see there are 3 options for stitching leather:

• Pricking Irons which put stitch marks on the leather that you push through with a sewing awl,
• Diamond Tip chissels that put small holes in the leather but you still need a bit of force to get needles through to sew and
• Round Punches which put neat holes in the leather.

Other than this, all I know are sewing machines which are expensive, advanced and for a time in my future.

I'm only starting out but I've tried both Round Punches and Diamond Tips for making some crappy 'learner' bags. Both were on multi-punch arrangments (2 and 5 puches mostly), both were 5mm separation and both seemed to do the thing well. Frankly, I'm trying to work out the difference between them.

All I can see is the round punches leave neat holes while the diamond tips are a bit tighter on holding the leather. I think I prefer the diamond tips but just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something. The ones I was using were crappy, ebay ones but they proved the point.

I rejected French Tips/Pricking Irons because I am doing some leather sewing while in other contexts - i.e. teaching at High School - and, franky, 2 needles and some thread through pre-punched hols are much more discrete than trying to force an Awl through tough leather.

 

Is this just a personal preference question or is there a genuine purpose for these I'm missing?

 

[Hardrada]

Don't think there'll be a consensus on "better".

Me, I use KS Blade pricking irons and Seiwa diamond chisels, depending on the project. KS Blade makes diamond irons too. KS Blade products are not cheap, but they punch effortlessly through thick leather—no need to force needles through.

My Seiwas are 4 mm and I use them for thicker thread (0.8 mm and up). They look unprepossessing, but perform flawlessly.

[toxo]

1 hour ago, Boicie said:

Total n00b questions but, frankly, which is better? Punches or those Diamond Tips?

From what I can see there are 3 options for stitching leather:

• Pricking Irons which put stitch marks on the leather that you push through with a sewing awl,
• Diamond Tip chissels that put small holes in the leather but you still need a bit of force to get needles through to sew and
• Round Punches which put neat holes in the leather.

Other than this, all I know are sewing machines which are expensive, advanced and for a time in my future.

I'm only starting out but I've tried both Round Punches and Diamond Tips for making some crappy 'learner' bags. Both were on multi-punch arrangments (2 and 5 puches mostly), both were 5mm separation and both seemed to do the thing well. Frankly, I'm trying to work out the difference between them.

All I can see is the round punches leave neat holes while the diamond tips are a bit tighter on holding the leather. I think I prefer the diamond tips but just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something. The ones I was using were crappy, ebay ones but they proved the point.

I rejected French Tips/Pricking Irons because I am doing some leather sewing while in other contexts - i.e. teaching at High School - and, franky, 2 needles and some thread through pre-punched hols are much more discrete than trying to force an Awl through tough leather.

 

Is this just a personal preference question or is there a genuine purpose for these I'm missing?

 

There are those that will tell you that pre-punched holes take material away and thus weaken the leather which essentially must be true BUT we're not holding the Titanic here so it's a pretty weak argument in my book. I would say there are times when both can be used. Try sewing a decent curve with both methods and you'll find out which is quickest and easiest but sometimes quickest and easiest isnt the objective.

[LatigoAmigo]

2 hours ago, Boicie said:

Total n00b questions but, frankly, which is better? Punches or those Diamond Tips?

Neither is better, it is simply a design choice. You have to decide which look are you going for. 

[zuludog]

You seem to have a good grasp of the situation already, but here are a few comments -

As you've said, pricking irons and overstitch wheels make shallow indentations to show the position, then you make the holes with an awl. This is the traditional method, but you need a fair amount of practice to do this quickly, accurately, and neatly, so for this reason it has mostly been replaced by stitching chisels, though you can still use this method if you wish

Stitching chisels both mark the position/spacing and make the holes; they have evolved into two types - 

The French or European style which have prongs with flat sides and a flat tip; the holes they make are a slit

The Japanese or Diamond style which have prongs with a diamond cross section, and pointed tips; the holes they make have are diamond shaped

Diamond are easier to place; French are trickier to place but some people think they give a more attractive finish, though there's not much in it, it mostly comes down to individual skill

Round punches or small drills will make the holes, but they do actually remove some of the leather, so you rely on the thread being thick enough to fill the hole. Awls & stitching chisels do not remove material, they make a slit which closes up around the thread - as you say 'tighter on holding the leather'.

Generally speaking, wider spaced holes are easier to sew, but closer spacing is neater. I use 5mm for axe covers & knife sheaths; 4mm for general leatherwork like belts, bags, and pouches; 3 or 3,5mm for wallets. Thread is 0,6mm for first two, 0,45mm for wallets

I would just carry on with diamond chisels. You can improve them by polishing the prongs with fine abrasive paper like wet & dry glued to a thin sliver of wood like a lollipop stick or thin aluminium. Depending on how rough they are, work your way from 400 to 1,000 grit in a couple of increments. This is a bit tedious, but you only need to do it once. There are a few YouTube videos about this

Lubricate the chisels with beeswax and when removing them hold down the leather with a small block of wood right up against the prongs, to avoid distorting your line of stitching. A steel hammer will damage the chisels, so use a soft hammer like wood, nylon or hide, but not rubber as this bounces 

Have a look at YT to see how other people do things. JH Leather mostly uses pricking irons & awl, but she is a professional saddler and has years of practice. Stitching chisels will only penetrate about 8mm of leather but you can use a similar technique  - use chisels as far as you can, then complete the hole with an awl

Which reminds me - 'trying to force an awl through tough leather' It is relatively straightforward, and therefore cheap, to make a basic tool, but  to get the final, razor sharp finish you run into the Law of Diminishing Returns - the need to do more & more fine sharpening & polishing, usually by hand. So traditionally, to keep the cost down, many leatherworking tools only come with a basic cutting edge, and you are expected to do the final stage yourself. It is only when you buy the most expensive and exotic makes that you can use them straight out of the box. There are YT videos on sharpening awls and other leather tools

Which awl are you using? The 4-in-1 awl that's often sold for beginners isn't very good (that's the polite version!). You're better off replacing it with a simple fixed blade awl. A properly sharpened awl should slide through leather with hardly any effort

[Klara]

Personaly I'm a big fan of the awl, but as you don't want to use them (btw, it sounds as if you were sewing leather while teaching another subject  - surely I must have misunderstood?) I won't say any more about it. 

I recommend diamond chisels for you. Holes made with a round punch and (not really) filled with sewing thread look very unprofessional to me. Just like when the big rectangular holes intended for lacing are used for sewing (not my idea, saw it in a book....) But I can't see a difference between holes made with pricking irons and awl and those punched all the way through with diamond chisels  - at least on the front. At the back my seam with punched-through holes looks better (but I've only been at it for a few months).

Nigel Armitage (author of many good YouTube videos and a very nice book) mostly works with pre-punched holes. He recommends the new European style pricking irons that are solid enough to punch all the way through thicker leather, but they are very expensive (my "cheap" set of pricking irons is € 40 for 3, and the maximum for punching is 0.8 mm). I'd say, stick with cheap(ish) diamond chisels, possibly hand-polished as recommended by @zuludog. (Mine aren't, but as I said, I normally only mark my stitches. And my awl blades are polished to the best of my ability!)

 

 

 

 

[zuludog]

BOICIE - I've just re-read your post -- "still need a bit of force to get the needles through"

You should be able to push the needles through easily enough with your fingers 90% of the time. They should slide through easily but not be so loose that they fall out on their own - I've seen this described as "a satisfying drag" The exception is when backstitching, when you might need to push with a scrap of thick leather or your awl haft

You might need to pull the needles out with pliers. You can get pliers with smooth jaws to avoid scratching the needles. I use a small pair of general purpose pliers; scrub them with kitchen surface cleaner to remove any dirt or grease; tape the jaws; use them at right angles so the needles are in line with the serrations and not across them 

Even if you've made the holes with a stitching chisel you might need to tease them out with an awl afterwards. When you hammer the sewing with a mallet or a cobbler's hammer afterwards, the slots will close up again. You can use a diamond awl; a round awl; or make a smooth & blunt diamond awl known as a soft awl

Make sure your needles are not too big. I use John James Saddler's Harness needles ; item code L3912; size 002 for general leatherwork; size 004 for thinner leather like wallets. Note -- John James sizing system is a bit confusing. Make sure you use size 002 and not size 2/0 which are too big 

There are many videos on leatherwork; watch those by Ian Atkinson; JH Leather; Nigel Armitage They all sew neatly with hardly any effort

[Klara]

1 hour ago, zuludog said:

....

Make sure your needles are not too big. I use John James Saddler's Harness needles ; item code L3912; size 002 for general leatherwork; size 004 for thinner leather like wallets. Note -- John James sizing system is a bit confusing. Make sure you use size 002 and not size 2/0 which are too big 

...

If the needles are too small sewing won't be comfortable either. In short, thread, needles and hole (in the leather) size must fit together for effortless sewing. My shop has tables on its website, but it's in French. If you still want a look: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

Edited July 5, 2021 by Klara

[zuludog]

39 minutes ago, Klara said:

If the needles are too small sewing won't be comfortable either. In short, thread, needles and hole (in the leather) size must fit together for effortless sewing. My shop has tables on its website, but it's in French. If you still want a look: https://www.decocuir.com/couture-cuir-fil-aiguille-choisir-guide-c1200x67488

Thanks for the link, it's very useful. You can choose an English translation

[Tugadude]

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