Old Juki or new clone?

[andcoffee]

I've been looking around for a walking-foot machine and I've noticed that I could get a new Atlas Levy clone for about the same price as an older (but supposedly well-maintained) Juki of the same model.  

Some background on my uses: 

Hobbyist who doesn't do high volume at all.  Will be used exclusively with leather.  Not in a rush to buy.  Currently own a Cobra post-bed machine that I'm happy with.  

Which option would you guys usually recommend?  I don't have any experience with Atlas Levy, but my Cobra seems to be working well for my needs.  

Thanks!

[kgg]

21 minutes ago, andcoffee said:

I've been looking around for a walking-foot machine

Some additional questions I think need to be answered before anyone would go out on a limb and give a definite answer. Which Juki model versus which Atlas Levy model? Are they just walking foot machines or are they compound feed machines. How thick of material (leather or fabric) do you need / want to sew and what thread would you be planning on using? Cost of used Juki and any pictures.

On the surface I would first choose a good used Juki over a similar new clone. That said I did purchase a new clone LS-1341as a stop gap until I can find a good used Juki 441. When I purchased my other Juki's (1181N and 1541S) I bought them new never had any problems right out of the box. Personally I like the quality of the Juki machines and I think parts / accessories will be always available.

kgg

 

[andcoffee]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

Some additional questions I think need to be answered before anyone would go out on a limb and give a definite answer. Which Juki model versus which Atlas Levy model? Are they just walking foot machines or are they compound feed machines. How thick of material (leather or fabric) do you need / want to sew and what thread would you be planning on using? Cost of used Juki and any pictures.

On the surface I would first choose a good used Juki over a similar new clone. That said I did purchase a new clone LS-1341as a stop gap until I can find a good used Juki 441. When I purchased my other Juki's (1181N and 1541S) I bought them new never had any problems right out of the box. Personally I like the quality of the Juki machines and I think parts / accessories will be always available.

kgg

 

Looking at the Juki 341 and the equivalent Atlas version.  Compound feed for various thicknesses of leather.  I don't do holsters or anything that thick, but I do like this machine as something that can go from smaller goods up heavier leathers.  

Edited September 7, 2021 by andcoffee

[kgg]

6 hours ago, andcoffee said:

Looking at the Juki 341 and the equivalent Atlas version. 

The Juki 341 (couldn't find it on their website) is an older version of the newer Juki LS-1341. The cost of a new Juki LS-1341 is probably north of $3500 US. The Atlas version appears to be a tweeted clone of the Juki LS-341 at ~ $1900 US. The cost difference between the clone and a new Juki is substantial. In Ontario, Canada a used Juki LS-1341 complete (table/servo motor) from a dealer will run ~ $1600 CAD (~$1275 US) while a new similar new clone model will cost  ~$2500 and up, depending on the dealer.

Still it depends on the price, the dealer reputation, how close the dealer is to your location, how comfortable you are buying and possibly doing repairs on a used machine versus a new machine and condition of the Juki. When I bought the LS-1341 clone I actually went to the dealer and was planning on buying a new Juki but the cost difference was substantial. I said I'd would give the clone a try. I have had it for over a year with no problems, it does do the job but it is no Juki.

The best advice I can give is go and test run both machines with your stuff and thread. If there are other dealers in your area with clones and used machines check them out as well.

kgg

[Cumberland Highpower]

I would personally never buy any a Chinese clone of anything.   A Genuine Juki is, overall a superior machine.

From a technical standpoint, the Chinese are a master of "Package Polish"  making a product look good on the shelf.  They often do not hold the tolerances of a Japanese or Western made machine as well as often times skipping good heat treatment on critical parts in an effort to keep cost low.

Sometimes a "clone" isn't an identical twin.  There are times a couple, a few, or many parts are made to a different spec and cannot be interchanged with a part from another "clone' or the genuine article.  What will you do in 10 years parts wise, when " Peoples' Revolutionary Golden Dog Fart Machinery Plant no. 112" closes or stops making sewing machines?

Yes, for many a Chinese clone can last many years.   If nothing else, buy the real article for the pride in ownership. I find allot of irony, borderline hypocrisy here on this forum when it comes to Chinese machines....Many are all about made local, made in USA, made in Canada, Made in England, support the small shops/etc and at first chance to save a buck, run out and buy a Chinese machine. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Cumberland Highpower

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

A Genuine Juki is, overall a superior machine.

I whole heartily agree. When a China clone is put side by side with a Juki there is a very quick realization why there is a difference.

 

1 hour ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

" Peoples' Revolutionary Golden Dog Fart Machinery Plant no. 112"

That just cracked me up. Thanks for the chuckle.

kgg

[nylonRigging]

Who can tell me ??? , Is there any Sew machine brand name in 2021 , that does not subcontract some or all parts from China ?

Juki is a solid machine . And the last New Juki I bought say's ..  Made In China  .....LOL  ,  But It is all about QC and the quality of part Spec. by the manufacture, even body finish and outer coating . Even so, I have a couple clones that run like Champs and most likely will outlive me, to sold to someone else and used for years.

.

Edited September 8, 2021 by nylonRigging

[Cumberland Highpower]

How about Seiko? I'm thinking to order a new one myself.   A few misc parts (screws etc) can't be avoided. 

[Matt S]

13 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

I would personally never buy any a Chinese clone of anything.   A Genuine Juki is, overall a superior machine.

From a technical standpoint, the Chinese are a master of "Package Polish"  making a product look good on the shelf.  They often do not hold the tolerances of a Japanese or Western made machine as well as often times skipping good heat treatment on critical parts in an effort to keep cost low.

Sometimes a "clone" isn't an identical twin.  There are times a couple, a few, or many parts are made to a different spec and cannot be interchanged with a part from another "clone' or the genuine article.  What will you do in 10 years parts wise, when " Peoples' Revolutionary Golden Dog Fart Machinery Plant no. 112" closes or stops making sewing machines?

Yes, for many a Chinese clone can last many years.   If nothing else, buy the real article for the pride in ownership.

I've had Chinese sewing machines before. The unreliability, the broken parts, the spongey castings, the crumbling screwheads, the lack of compatibility with nearly-but-not-quite fitting parts, all made them less of a deal than they seemed. I admit that there are varying qualities. Some may approach the quality of a "real deal" "premium" manufacturer. I doubt that many do, or that any equal them.

 

Quote

I find allot of irony, borderline hypocrisy here on this forum when it comes to Chinese machines....Many are all about made local, made in USA, made in Canada, Made in England, support the small shops/etc and at first chance to save a buck, run out and buy a Chinese machine. 

I thought I was the only one who saw the irony! The tooled and hand painted "screaming eagle carrying a stars and stripes 1911 holster"  sewn on a Chinese 441 clone. The wallet made from ox hide pit tanned for 14 months in English oak bark sewn on a "Wung Hung Lo" 335-a-like. The "local hand tool artisan" marking his stitch holes with a $15 copy of a Blanchard pricking iron.

I buy Chinese-built tools and machinery only when there is no other option or I simply can't afford anything better. I'm rarely impressed with the quality, and I'm always disappointed sending yet more trade to that slave empire.
 

50 minutes ago, nylonRigging said:

Who can tell me ??? , Is there any Sew machine brand name in 2021 , that does not subcontract some or all parts from China ?

Juki is a solid machine . And the last New Juki I bought say's ..  Made In China  .....LOL  ,  But It is all about QC and the quality of part Spec. by the manufacture, even body finish and outer coating . Even so, I have a couple clones that run like Champs and most likely will outlive me, to sold to someone else and used for years.

.

Even Juki now?  

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Matt S said:

Even Juki now?

Some of the newer Juki's are made in China and some in Vietnam. But it depends on the model, the last I heard the Juki 1541S were still being made in Japan as was the 441. Quality remains to be seen on the non Japanese manufactured models.

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

I buy Chinese-built tools and machinery only when there is no other option or I simply can't afford anything better. I'm rarely impressed with the quality, and I'm always disappointed sending yet more trade to that slave empire.

I agree.

2 hours ago, Matt S said:

"Wung Hung Lo" 335-a-like

That one gave me another chuckle.

Clone is an identical copy, Forgery is just a look-a-like copy.

kgg

[Constabulary]

The problem is you barely (if at all) find new made in USA or made in UK sewing machinery anymore. And the considerably low prices for CHICOM machinery allows many people to run a new industrial sewing machine (f.i. when new to hobby or open a small business) which they could not afford when new made in the the USA, Canada, UK or Germany. Thats the same with wood working machinery, 3D printers,  and so forth. The medal always has 2 sides.

I for my self do not like CHICOM sewing machinery and don´t even want to pay the "low" prices (putting machine prices and output in relation) so my way is restoring vintage Singer machinery - and that is very rewarding. And I relay like to figure out when parts of different brands are interchangeable to keep the old cast iron running. Like Singer, Dürkopp, and some CLAES have several parts in common on certain machines - not mentioned the whole lot of Singer based Japanese brands - even Pfaff and Adler using a few Singer standard parts - f.i. of the flat bed straight stitchers like the 31K /96K class... long story). My oldest Singer was from 1905 and that thing was great. Not sure when my 51w was made (maybe approx same age) but that is unbelievable fine machinery for that age. Maybe new machinery is more comfortable but in the end you often do not see on what machine a piece is sewn. Though I'm in "Pfaff and Adler land" I prefer Singer because of the parts situation and technical documentation. But yes - I bought some great quality CHICOM parts for my Singers too cause OEM accessories are hard to find so CHICOM parts are the only or the most economic way sometimes.

As I said before the medal always has 2 sides.

To answer the question I would buy the JUKI too cause - IF the machines are comparable. But you have not mentioned any model numbers. Just the brand names do not tell us a lot. Like do I better buy a Ford or a Dodge... Know what I mean? Give us more details...

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Constabulary

[chrisash]

Sorry but Quality control is the real key to it all, some firms have it set to high standard and some to a lower standard, but that is not unique to China or any other country

I cannot say with hand on heart that all manufactured goods in the UK are designed or built for long life and i guess most others can say the same about goods from their own countries

The only real reason goods went to the Far East was cheap labour that meant local manufacture was unprofitable and China is now finding the same problems itself

I imagine many thousands of poplar leather workers machines are made in the far east  giving many years of good service. Unfortunately quality comes at a price; and top quality a even higher price

[Matt S]

6 hours ago, Constabulary said:

The problem is you barely (if at all) find new made in USA or made in UK sewing machinery anymore. And the considerably low prices for CHICOM machinery allows many people to run a new industrial sewing machine (f.i. when new to hobby or open a small business) which they could not afford when new made in the the USA, Canada, UK or Germany. Thats the same with wood working machinery, 3D printers,  and so forth. The medal always has 2 sides.

That is very true. For the UK Singer stopped making industrials at Kilbowie in the late 60s I think and started rebadging Seikos and Adlers. BUSM concentrated on automated machinery and I expect hasn't made a manually guided sewing machine since 1945. Most people don't want to rely on a 50+ year old machine for their business, and often can't due to safety features. There used at least to be alternatives to the Chinese fare by going for quality and reliability for European or Japanese made. Pfaff is making some in China, apparently now Juki too. Not sure about Seiko, Mitsubishi or Brother.
 

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

Sorry but Quality control is the real key to it all, some firms have it set to high standard and some to a lower standard, but that is not unique to China or any other country

I cannot say with hand on heart that all manufactured goods in the UK are designed or built for long life and i guess most others can say the same about goods from their own countries

The only real reason goods went to the Far East was cheap labour that meant local manufacture was unprofitable and China is now finding the same problems itself

I imagine many thousands of poplar leather workers machines are made in the far east  giving many years of good service. Unfortunately quality comes at a price; and top quality a even higher price

Yes QC is a factor. I've heard anecdotally that the added costs of doing effective QC to Chinese-made goods often brings them up to a cost comparable with making them in the West. You're right that being made in any particular country is not a guarantee of how well it's made but I think we can agree that there is a strong correlation based on local culture. Quality and price are not the only factors when choosing where I spend my hard-earned lucre. I feel it is morally wrong to support China wherever there is an alternative option, and has huge security, ecological and economic repercussions that are only yet beginning to be felt.

I see China a bit like the supermarkets. They replaced independent and small-chain stores in the UK since WW2, and in earnest since probably the early 1990s. What they did was very plain -- they put up a shop and sold everything cheap. Partly because they had economies of scale, partly because they could afford to sell at a low or negative profit in that store. Local shops went out of business. Prices crept up, but now they've got a captive market and can charge what they like. This is called "destroyer pricing", or on a smaller scale "loss leaders" when certain items are sold at a low profit to entice shoppers, who then buy everything else there (at a higher profit margin). Then when they're the only buyer the price that farmers can charge for their produce is squeezed (UK farm-gate milk prices are now at or below cost to the farmer). They squeeze wages, especially in areas where they're the only big employers in town. They lobby governments into policy changes that suit them, such as the recent hiccup with lorry driver shortage (some supermarkets want the army to step in, where this could have been avoided by paying HGV drivers a decent wage and working conditions for the past 20 years rather than rely on importing cheap Easter European labour).

China has been doing this for decades, but factors of magnitude bigger. Initially it was simply "cheap" to have stuff made there. Then they got very good at copying, cloning and industrial espionage (what this thread was about initially). That undercuts those firms that actually invent, innovate and invest in R&D. Then as regulations around a safe working environments, fair pay for workers, consumer protection and environmental protection got tighter (and more expensive to comply with) China became a far more attractive centre for manufacture simply by saying "yeah no, we don't do that". They are using their manufacturing capability to acquire strategic infrastructure such as ports around the world, especially in the developing world. China is the modern, global version of the "bad old days" 18th and 19th century industrialists and imperialists we're constantly being told we ought to feel shame about. Those "dark satanic mills" Blake wrote about, with undernourished workers stamping about in clogs and waistcoats on 12+ hour shifts at slave wages are no longer in the Welsh valleys and Lancashire towns -- they're all conveniently out of sight on the other side of the world wearing flipflops and T-shirts.

I refuse to believe that Chinese-made stuff has as much of a stranglehold on trade as people think. I suspect that is largely perpetuated by middlemen, who profit from it. I was in Primark last week (don't like it, but one of very few clothes shops local to me now -- see above for why). They had a jacket I liked, in the utility/workwear/chore style you used to see everywhere. £35, made in China. Identical jacket from better cloth from WSC Workwear is £20. From Yarmo (more famous) £35. Both made in the UK.

[keithski122]

I have a Typical machine which is made in China and it is far better than the knackered old Juki I was previously using.Mine was bought secondhand so I have no knowledge of how it was used before but is now used in a work setting and has proved faultless.

[jcuk]

Yea i have stopped getting things out of China as much as i can, for some of the reasons already stated in fact the last Chinese thing i have had lately was a take away the other night and it was not to bad at all

[Cumberland Highpower]

Matt part of the problem with Pfaff is that it's just a brand name nowadays.  Pfaff, Durkopp Adler, Mauser Spezial (Did I spell that right?)  All belong to the Chinese.  Chinese owners are free to use the names as they see fit, including marketing Chinese made clones under the PFAFF and Adler name.  Lucky for us, so far anyway, the Chinese owners have left Durkopp Adler to operate in Germany as it had been.  (Mostly). I think it's a matter of time though.....

On a side note, there are very few US made machines to choose from.  I've thought a few times to perhaps start building machines, although I just don't quite have time.  Anyone remember Tony Luberto? He at least made and marketed a machine.  If he can do it, anyone can.  Weaver could very likely make and sell Adler 205 clones in house at the same price as the Chinese imports they offer but they choose not to.   

[Constabulary]

  

A lot of new models of the Dürkopp Adler machinery is made in the Czech Republic by MINERVA and they still have a huge facility in Bielefeld.

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/en/index.html

https://www.minerva-boskovice.com/

1 hour ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

Anyone remember Tony Luberto?

I do - I loved his #9 which is kind of a modern type of the classic BUSMC / Pearson #6HM. I think it is (or was) available from Weaver for a while.

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Constabulary

[Cumberland Highpower]

Yes that's true, and I'm glad at least they  (durkopp adler) own part of it.   You can say that Minerva is partly owned by the Chinese as a result.  I also believe many Durkopp Adler parts are also now made in a plant in Romania, possibly also owned by the Chinese.  It's becoming a vicious circle here   

I'd not be surprised if in 10 years, they'll bring it all "home" for better profits.

I had a "Classic" Luberto for  while, I bought it on a whim at at an auction and eventually sold it for a fair profit to a gent in KY.   I liked it overall.  For some reason I broke more needles on it than any threaded eye stitcher I've owned though?   And no reverse    It was a very stout, easy to use machine.  I believe the Classic was just a little more refined/beefed up no9.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Cumberland Highpower

[dmar836]

I have a newer Juki 1541S and love it - does anything and everything I ask.

Also have an older straight stitch Juki and a Singer 111 from the late 40s which has a lot of use (much paint worn off of the bed, etc.). While checking/adjusting these older machines, I measured some of the parts like the needle bar and some of the walking foot parts. They were all nominal .250 or whatever they were to be with little to no slop. For this reason, unless an older model has been aggressively abused, as in visible mechanical damage, there is a lot to just using them. The new, import stuff might work out of the box but...

Buying advice: Operate the machine or have all it's features demonstrated. My 111 gave me fits with backlash until I realized it was likely that the pedal was returning to carpet and that was preventing a consistent braking of the clutch motor.

Dave