You can't afford starting with leathercraft?

[Cumberland Highpower]

Well, if it makes anyone feel better I happen to have one tool made in China that is excellent.  A double box end wrench that I bought 20 years ago.   It's well forged out of great steel.     Of all the junk Chinese tools I've handled or used/broken, how did this piece turn out to be good?   I think it was an accident, a fluke.  Maybe they were short of scrap Studebakers and melted down a prototype T99, I don't know.....

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Cumberland Highpower

[Spyros]

2 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

Well, if it makes anyone feel better I happen to have one tool made in China that is excellent.  A double box end wrench that I bought 20 years ago.   It's well forged out of great steel.     Of all the junk Chinese tools I've handled or used/broken, how did this piece turn out to be good?   I think it was an accident, a fluke.  Maybe they were short of scrap Studebakers and melted down a prototype T99, I don't know.....

 

how much did the junk Chinese tools cost?

[fredk]

I've thought hard about writing the following.

I'm not posting as a troll. Its for your information. 

This will really annoy the US members

In Northern Ireland US made goods are considered to be crap. Mention that its 'US made' and the advice is to throw it away and buy better quality

Everything from vehicles to tools. Even US food is banned here because of its low quality

US made things have an extremely bad reputation for being of poor quality and shoddy.

Tool dealers I know and have dealt with have long since stopped importing and after-sales supporting certain US made tools because of their poor quality. Certain vehicle importers have stopped importing US built vehicles for the same reasons

[mike02130]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

This will really annoy the US members

I'm much in agreement with you, at least tools that were made in the last 25 years or so.  Most US tools are made in Mexico and China.  Milwaukee tools are owned by a Chinese company.  I'm a finish carpenter (joiner) and woodworker so I have a lot of experience with wood tools.  My tools are mostly older USA tools that are built well.  I buy cheap broken USA power tools to use as replacement parts. My bigger machines are all USA made between 1950 to 1980.  Many of my hand tools were made by Stanley from 1920 to the 1950's.  There are small manufacturers in the USA that do make excellent tools.  But no mass produced ones that I can think of.  Many American professional tool users will agree with you.  It is a topic often discussed on the job site.

I'm  genuinely interested in knowing more about crappy USA tools and what tool brands and tool producing countries are preferred?

2 hours ago, fredk said:

Tool dealers I know and have dealt with have long since stopped importing and after-sales supporting certain US made tools because of their poor quality.

 

[Squid61]

When I was doing garage woodworking including cabinetry I bought most of my hand tools at antique stores, most of the modern US manufacture tools were well below them in quality.  I'm referring to tools such as saw tooth sets, saw vices, planes, saws, gauges and such.  When I now buy a "US" made tool, powered or not, I expect it either to be manufactured off shore or in Mexico and some minor finishing here, or at least imported components assembled here.  I have bought C.S.Osborne tools recently and noticed even they are lower quality than they were years back, the edge on a skiving knife in particular required significant hand grinding before I could begin to sharpen and hone it.

My problem with Chinese manufactured anything isn't quality, if one is selective there are fine quality items available from China, I just have a hard time buying from a country that openly despises the US and with which we could one day be at war.  If that's too political a statement, not sorry.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Squid61 said:

When I was doing garage woodworking including cabinetry I bought most of my hand tools at antique stores, most of the modern US manufacture tools were well below them in quality.  I'm referring to tools such as saw tooth sets, saw vices, planes, saws, gauges and such.  When I now buy a "US" made tool, powered or not, I expect it either to be manufactured off shore or in Mexico and some minor finishing here, or at least imported components assembled here.  I have bought C.S.Osborne tools recently and noticed even they are lower quality than they were years back, the edge on a skiving knife in particular required significant hand grinding before I could begin to sharpen and hone it.

My problem with Chinese manufactured anything isn't quality, if one is selective there are fine quality items available from China, I just have a hard time buying from a country that openly despises the US and with which we could one day be at war.  If that's too political a statement, not sorry.

We are at war, its an economic war and they are winning because they know its a war and we don't yet. But i have to agree on US tools also and buying vintage /antique.

[johnnydb]

7 hours ago, fredk said:

I've thought hard about writing the following.

I'm not posting as a troll. Its for your information. 

This will really annoy the US members

In Northern Ireland US made goods are considered to be crap. Mention that its 'US made' and the advice is to throw it away and buy better quality

Everything from vehicles to tools. Even US food is banned here because of its low quality

US made things have an extremely bad reputation for being of poor quality and shoddy.

Tool dealers I know and have dealt with have long since stopped importing and after-sales supporting certain US made tools because of their poor quality. Certain vehicle importers have stopped importing US built vehicles for the same reasons

The tool parts come from Mexico, Canada, Pakistan, India and China...then assembled here and exported. Yes, they are crap. There are ways to get good tools but the big name brands aren't it. 

Now US food is top quality...if you buy the appropriate quality. USA processes a TON of various foods. Usually meat and meat products and dairy and dairy products. 

 

Now fresh produce and grains are another story. Until this year. Most of your grains are going to come from America if the rest of the EU cannot produce enough. (Usually just enough for their local area.and a bit more) 

Farmed Food used to come from Brazil...but they have had a severe drought. And food from India is kaput due to the shipping container shortage. 

[Cumberland Highpower]

10 hours ago, Spyros said:

how much did the junk Chinese tools cost?

That's hard to say, I remember the tools, not the prices.  I haven't bought Chinese tools since I've been a "Grownup"    I think I may have been 17 when I bought the double box-end wrench for my 86 Ford Tempo. (Now that was junk, Canadian/American made mostly I believe).  I bought that wrench because at the time it was the only tool that could reach far enough remove the rear strut mounting nuts.  Most of the tools I had at that time were from Oddlots.  

I did buy a set from India at Oddlots I remember.  I think they were "Gedore"    At the time I thought was a good buy, but they were literally as brittle as glass....Only thing I've seen worse than Chinese made.

 

 

[Spyros]

1 minute ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

That's hard to say, I remember the tools, not the prices. 

The only reason I was asking is if you paid peanuts, then of course they were not gonna be good or last very long.    I mean we sometimes blame the products without looking at what we actually paid.

[Cumberland Highpower]

9 hours ago, fredk said:

I've thought hard about writing the following.

I'm not posting as a troll. Its for your information. 

This will really annoy the US members

In Northern Ireland US made goods are considered to be crap. Mention that its 'US made' and the advice is to throw it away and buy better quality

Everything from vehicles to tools. Even US food is banned here because of its low quality

US made things have an extremely bad reputation for being of poor quality and shoddy.

Tool dealers I know and have dealt with have long since stopped importing and after-sales supporting certain US made tools because of their poor quality. Certain vehicle importers have stopped importing US built vehicles for the same reasons

I'm not quite sure if that's really a fact?  Perhaps in the 1970s....?

My wife is from Europe and from the many times I've been across Europe,  I find American goods somewhat coveted.  Chryslers and Jeeps are fairly desirable and a little on the exotic side.  (My father in law owns a Jeep and specifically sought it out).    American mechanics tools command good prices iif/when found and are pretty desirable.   Ironically the same with firearms.  Remingtons and Winchesters are sought after and considered a prize item.  (Here I would say they don't know better, as most European firearms are superior in design, materials, fit and finish).

Perhaps Northern Ireland is  a different tune.  One place I haven't been yet but would like to visit.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Cumberland Highpower

[Spyros]

I'm not gonna comment on economic wars etc, but:

from a pricing perspective, I can see there is definitely a fixation in the US market for US made "artisan" goods, I can see a bunch of people with actual measurable sales on etsy etc selling pretty basic and ridiculously overpriced items, and people actually paying it and being very happy leaving positive comments.  And I'm not gonna lie, if I was in the US I would exploit the crap out of them.

[Cumberland Highpower]

2 minutes ago, Spyros said:

The only reason I was asking is if you paid peanuts, then of course they were not gonna be good or last very long.    I mean we sometimes blame the products without looking at what we actually paid.

I understand your point.   I would say "cheap" American made mechanics tools would have been along the lines of some Craftsman, Bon-Econ, Stanley, New Brititian, Fleet,  etc back in the day.  If you go to a flea market and purchase some USA made generic sockets and wrenches, Even without names, you'd find they are as strong or stronger than the best of Chinese tools made today. 

[Spyros]

57 minutes ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

I understand your point.   I would say "cheap" American made mechanics tools would have been along the lines of some Craftsman, Bon-Econ, Stanley, New Brititian, Fleet,  etc back in the day.  If you go to a flea market and purchase some USA made generic sockets and wrenches, Even without names, you'd find they are as strong or stronger than the best of Chinese tools made today. 

I obviously did not grow up in the US so I don't actually know, but I do get the feeling from your recounts (and from other people as well), that US made products back then were moderately priced and generally affordable for the trade person or the hobbyist.   But if you look around now, there are still a bunch of US made products, and a lot of them if not most of them are laughably overpriced for what they are.  I mean sure all the problems you guys are describing with foreign competition and your national industrial and external policies overtime, these are all valid concerns.   But there is also a point where if someone overseas makes something and sells it for 10% your price and undercuts your sales, it's not necessarily because his cost is that much lower, but mainly because your price was like 50% higher (or more) than it needed to be in the first place.  It really feels like a lot of US businesses are going for a snatch, or an exploitation of the "US made" nostalgia, rather than a long term viable commercial strategy.  Industrial manufacturing globally is a 3-5% margin business, it's just how it is, I know because that's my morning job.  And it's the same for Ford as it is for a Swiss or a Chinese manufacturer.  So if your pricing is going for 30 or 40% profit then you're simply not gonna last very long in manufacturing.

(Leatherworking is different than industrial manufacturing of course.  By definition, even if you're using sewing machines, the cost in leatherworking is mostly labour.  So leatherworking is by definition low volume artisan items and should be priced accordingly for a high margin, and I applaud the people who do so).

Edited October 10, 2021 by Spyros

[Handstitched]

When I read the OP, I was of the understanding that this thread was about the affordability of the craft, for the newbies, beginners , budget conscious , keeping costs down  etc.  'Making do' with what we already have in our sheds, adapting tools for use with leather, the very basic tools and materials  to get started , sharing ideas ,  just as I have,  .....and so on.....

  I  have completely &  totally missed the point of this thread . 

HS

[jcuk]

This might be true at first you get the tools you need to get you started on the your early projects but then you will improve and may want to step out of your comfort zone and make more complex things which may require a different tools to make those new things. When i finished my first piece of training they sent me away with all the tools i needed to make a bridle which i did, but had no splitting machine ie pull through splitter and Plough Gauge i knew i would need these to make things easier and faster. And still have all those tools i started with many moons ago all were no name tools still work as good as they did then maybe even better or maybe the user got improved along the way. Yes i have tools made by Dixons, Blanchard, Barnsley, Adams Osborne which i gathered along the way,  one tool i have is over 100 years old work's like a dream, much prefer older tools. Thats not to say all newly made tools are rubbish but give me a set of Blanchard, Barnsley prick irons over anything from the far east. And yes i did say Blanchard even though now we are out of the EU still would rather support economies closer to home. And yes i have brought things from the far east when i could not source them closer to home unfortunately.

Hope this helps

JCUK  

[Spyros]

I still find leatherworking very cheap compared to other crafts and hobbies that people typically get into, things like woodworking, metalworking, watches, photography, or anything with a motor, or anything that floats, or even cycling.   Or gambling :D
Leatherworking gets expensive when you start buying sewing machines and serious clicker presses, but by that point you almost certainly have a business and you're earning it back.

Seriously have you seen what an entirely unplugged set of decent woodworking hand tools costs?  Before you even buy a single power tool.  

Edited October 11, 2021 by Spyros

[Klara]

I haven't. I don't even know what should be in this set...

But now that you mention it: My recorders (the wind instrument) certainly cost more than all my leather stuff (tools and consumables) together. And I just have the basic SATB set in "cheap" woods...

I suspect that all serious amateurs (in the sense of "doing it out of love") sooner or later spend quite a bit of money on their hobby. And then I see a professional from a poor country, with no money to spend, who creates works of art with next to nothing, and I get an inferiority complex. (Is it a complex if one is inferior? )

[Danne]

On 10/11/2021 at 4:54 PM, Spyros said:

I still find leatherworking very cheap compared to other crafts and hobbies that people typically get into, things like woodworking, metalworking, watches, photography, or anything with a motor, or anything that floats, or even cycling.   Or gambling :D
Leatherworking gets expensive when you start buying sewing machines and serious clicker presses, but by that point you almost certainly have a business and you're earning it back.

Seriously have you seen what an entirely unplugged set of decent woodworking hand tools costs?  Before you even buy a single power tool.  

Yes, I agree with you. But even though it might be cheap to spend let's say a 2-300euro to start crafting with some decent tools. That will be A LOT of money for someone who barely have money to buy food. And I'm certain there are people visiting this forum who which they could start crafting, but then they see expensive pricking irons, electric creasers, and they can't afford to buy these tools. So they look at budget Japanese tools, but still too expensive, and they see it as impossible to start crafting. But with very little money most people can start making small things like watch straps, and practice stitching/edge finishing/creasing on scrap leather. And it's certainly possible to make really nice things with those really cheap tools. And I wouldn't recommend people to start with these tools I posted if they can afford to spend 100-200euro. My whole point was that most people can start crafting, and once they sell a couple of straps they can buy nicer leather and invest in some better tools with the profit. 

 

[Constabulary]

you can also buy quite cheap tool sets and I doubt this one is of lesser quality than what Tandy sells. But as always you never know before you tried it.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/373492308811

https://www.ebay.de/itm/313620260332

Edited October 13, 2021 by Constabulary

[Spyros]

37 minutes ago, Danne said:

Yes, I agree with you. But even though it might be cheap to spend let's say a 2-300euro to start crafting with some decent tools. That will be A LOT of money for someone who barely have money to buy food. And I'm certain there are people visiting this forum who which they could start crafting, but then they see expensive pricking irons, electric creasers, and they can't afford to buy these tools. So they look at budget Japanese tools, but still too expensive, and they see it as impossible to start crafting. But with very little money most people can start making small things like watch straps, and practice stitching/edge finishing/creasing on scrap leather. And it's certainly possible to make really nice things with those really cheap tools. And I wouldn't recommend people to start with these tools I posted if they can afford to spend 100-200euro. My whole point was that most people can start crafting, and once they sell a couple of straps they can buy nicer leather and invest in some better tools with the profit. 

 

Well, the creaser is your personal decision (and mine by the way) but it's very far from essential, most people don't ever crease anything.  And although I have a good budget for tools I never felt any need or desire for any leathercraft-specific knife, I just use box cutters and scissors from the hardware store.  Same for glue, because leatherworking glue is basically watered-down contact adhesive, of which you can buy a small bucket for $20 pretty much anywhere and then dilute it to 2 buckets to last you months.  A leatherworking maul, unless you get into carving/tooling doesn't really have a reason of existence compared to a hardware store $10 mallet, a stitching pony is basically two pieces of wood with a door hinge and a wing nut, and so on and so forth

But I do disagree with your 100-200 euro tool list because there is the issue of leatherworking punches.  You just need them from the get go, I can't think of anything else that will do, once you get to strap holes and hardware?  The cheap ones break and the decent ones get pretty expensive pretty quickly because you do need different shapes and sizes.  And then you need specific setters for every piece of hardware you choose to use (if you want to set it properly).  A couple of irons, an awl, a cutting surface, a basic strap cutter, bevellers...  I think the minimum starter budget is probably closer to $500.

[Klara]

9 minutes ago, Spyros said:

...

But I do disagree with your 100-200 euro tool list because there is the issue of leatherworking punches.  You just need them from the get go, I can't think of anything else that will do, once you get to strap holes and hardware?  The cheap ones break and the decent ones get pretty expensive pretty quickly because you do need different shapes and sizes.  And then you need specific setters for every piece of hardware you choose to use (if you want to set it properly).  A couple of irons, an awl, a cutting surface, a basic strap cutter, bevellers...  I think the minimum starter budget is probably closer to $500.

Actually, I'm happy enough with my cheap mini leather punch set (like this  https://tandyleather.com/collections/tools/products/mini-leather-punch-set , for which I bought a few smaller inserts for small decorative rivets. And a small Ertalon base to keep them in shape. The rivet/snap setters came in a fairly cheap kit (with a rotary punch which is not strictly necessary, but nice to have). I don't need end punches or corner punches or oblong punches... Sure, they'd be nice to have, but the way I see it they are a prime example of a tool I'll only buy when I make so many items that it will save me a lot of time, and then it'll pay for itself. 

Hardware-wise I mostly use snap hooks, rings and buckles which I sew on. I only have snap buttons for bracelets and belts with interchangeable buckles. Hardly any setters needed

I dare say that once you know what you want to make, it's not so difficult to limit spending. The difficulty is knowing what you want when you haven't started yet...

 

 

 

[Spyros]

7 minutes ago, Klara said:

Actually, I'm happy enough with my cheap mini leather punch set (like this  https://tandyleather.com/collections/tools/products/mini-leather-punch-set , for which I bought a few smaller inserts for small decorative rivets. And a small Ertalon base to keep them in shape. The rivet/snap setters came in a fairly cheap kit (with a rotary punch which is not strictly necessary, but nice to have). I don't need end punches or corner punches or oblong punches... Sure, they'd be nice to have, but the way I see it they are a prime example of a tool I'll only buy when I make so many items that it will save me a lot of time, and then it'll pay for itself. 

Hardware-wise I mostly use snap hooks, rings and buckles which I sew on. I only have snap buttons for bracelets and belts with interchangeable buckles. Hardly any setters needed

I dare say that once you know what you want to make, it's not so difficult to limit spending. The difficulty is knowing what you want when you haven't started yet...

 

 

 

You must have a lighter hand than me, I had that mini punch and broke it LOL

I mean I broke the black bit I was using the most, then I had to buy a replacement, then another replacement because I broke it again, and when I broke it again I gave up and bought a good set of punches which I still have.  There's a reason this set is $12, maybe it's fine for someone more careful than me, but I can't recommend it based on my experience.

The odd-shape punches, well just because you don't need them, doesn't mean they're not needed

Edited October 13, 2021 by Spyros

[Spyros]

Actually you know what really helps and costs next to nothing?  those needle tip bottles

I can't live without them, I have a couple dozen for every colour edge paint, for tokonole, for glue, edge kote, you name it.

Also silicone brushes and various silicone-tipped tools for spreading glue, they're like a dollar on ebay

And those $2 doorstops for holding down your pattern when cutting leather.  People actually sell "pattern weights" for $50 LOL

 

 

 

[Danne]

52 minutes ago, Klara said:

Actually, I'm happy enough with my cheap mini leather punch set (like this  https://tandyleather.com/collections/tools/products/mini-leather-punch-set , for which I bought a few smaller inserts for small decorative rivets. And a small Ertalon base to keep them in shape. The rivet/snap setters came in a fairly cheap kit (with a rotary punch which is not strictly necessary, but nice to have). I don't need end punches or corner punches or oblong punches... Sure, they'd be nice to have, but the way I see it they are a prime example of a tool I'll only buy when I make so many items that it will save me a lot of time, and then it'll pay for itself. 

Hardware-wise I mostly use snap hooks, rings and buckles which I sew on. I only have snap buttons for bracelets and belts with interchangeable buckles. Hardly any setters needed

I dare say that once you know what you want to make, it's not so difficult to limit spending. The difficulty is knowing what you want when you haven't started yet...

 

 

 

But I guess you had to sharpen it? Because at least when I bought that punch set years ago, it was far from a hole punch.

The "cutting edge" was 0.3mm thick. 

[mike02130]

4 hours ago, Spyros said:

But I do disagree with your 100-200 euro tool list because there is the issue of leatherworking punches.  You just need them from the get go, I can't think of anything else that will do, once you get to strap holes and hardware?  The cheap ones break and the decent ones get pretty expensive pretty quickly because you do need different shapes and sizes.  And then you need specific setters for every piece of hardware you choose to use (if you want to set it properly).  A couple of irons, an awl, a cutting surface, a basic strap cutter, bevellers...  I think the minimum starter budget is probably closer to $500.

A watch strap requires one hole punch.  Wallets and most handbags don't require a punch unless you are making an adjustable shoulder strap; and then, it is only one punch.  No "setters" are needed.  So, 1 set of irons, and two punches is how much money?  Hmm, you could even throw in a Japanese cutting/skiving knife and a creaser.  

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by mike02130
punctuation