You can't afford starting with leathercraft?

[johnnydb]

As a rabid hobbyist and have been through several careers...

Tools are just something that you have to have. And steel is not all the same. 

When shaving with straight razors: 

Friends don't let friends shave with Pakistani steel. And I specifically look for that junk... because it is junk. I want no part of it. 

In some places it is important to buy the "good stuff" because there is only one me...and I got to return again tomorrow to do it again. It's all about "return on investment". And sometimes it is all about my convenience versus getting something cheaper that will work but is a pain to use. (Especially if I use it often) 

And when needing a special tool for a single use or rare use...don't bother getting the expensive stuff. It's just not going to work out...first off it's taking up space without paying rent. 

And I haven't bought a knife or awl yet that didn't require a few hours of sharpening and polishing the edge first in order to be useful.  

That fact alone should be in every introductory video and pamphlet...but most of them leave that tidbit out. Most think that brand new out of the plastic it should be good...not a one of them yet are. My first swivel knife I bought earlier this week had a polished edge...with a piss poor angle for the edge and so dull it wouldn't cut butter. I had to grind in a better angle for the edge and then gave it one. And then I had a great time cutting and getting used to it. I can tell that this is going to be fun. 

 

When I was a fine dining chef...I used all kinds of chef knives....tried them all out. And the good knives are expensive for a reason...those few ounces less weight and the length of time it holds that edge matter a good deal when turning a 20 KG/50lbs bag of carrots into sticks. 

Some things are just preferences...I like certain tools because they fit my hands better and after years of use their performance is such I don't even have to watch what I am doing anymore. I can do it blindfolded and not do better or worse than normal. 

 

I'm not so accomplished yet as I need a clicker press to mass produce anything....but I'm not looking to make a living either....I will if there becomes a demand for it. But how many journals and keychains and wallets sold at profitable prices can be sold in my neighborhood? And will they still have that Craftsman touch if I do?  Or will it become like poorly made production pieces if I make too many too fast with stitching machines and clicker presses?  

The prices are always figured on materials+labor+ overhead+profit. 

Overhead is the cost of tools...they are expendables that wear out. 

If you need longer than 30 minutes to carve out a wallet is it you or the tools?  And can you get it done faster on the press? Is it cheaper to sub out gold embossed initials and names or do you fork out for the machine and letters. It will raise your overhead costs if you buy it.  

 

Just saying...

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, johnnydb said:

The prices are always figured on materials+labor+ overhead+profit. 

Nope, not me.  My prices are always figured out based on what I can charge, which is based on the competition.  I never leave money on the table, this is for people who price their stuff based on their costs.

If an iphone was based on costs it would be priced $200.

(I agree with everything else you said by the way, pricing is just my favourite nitpick :D  )

Edited October 8, 2021 by Spyros

[Klara]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

Now, overtime, in every craft, and with lots of use, it becomes apparent that some cheap tools just don't cut it.  They have to be replaced too often, or the result is not great, or they need too much maintenance.  IF and when you get to that stage, and only then, is the right time to buy a good quality tool for that specific job.

I agree with that, except it needn't be a specific job, it can also be an all-purpose tool I use again and again and again. Like a battery drill/screwdriver. It took me a few tries, but I finally realised I had  to spend the money on a Makita (anybody knows an equivalent brand, please tell). On the other hand, buying a Dremel would have been a waste of money, the cheap knockoff does the job in the rare cases I need it. I have quite a few tools that I have for "just in case" (tiny screwdrivers to repair my glasses) - often enough I had picked them up in the supermarket when sets were on offer for little money.

Of course, that way I buy twice (or more often), but I spend the big bucks only where necessary. I think that still works out cheaper than buying all tools in top quality, even the ones I'll hardly use.

However, I'm getting to the point where I think that cheap hardware - and possibly cheap leather, but I'll continue experimenting for a while - are just not worth my time and effort. Which is a pity, cause that's where the real money goes (€ 3 for a single decorative and functional snap??!!...)

(Back to China: I bought one of the small rounded knives without a handle and so far I'm really impressed.)

 

[Spyros]

27 minutes ago, Klara said:

It took me a few tries, but I finally realised I had  to spend the money on a Makita (anybody knows an equivalent brand, please tell).

In the world of drills the hierarchy is: high end (Hilti, Festool, Mafell) mid-range/tradie's typical choices (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch (blue), Makita), entry level (Ryobi, Bosch (green), various glorious old brand names that have been bought by China Inc. like AEG, Black & Decker etc)

For most people the entry level ones are perfectly fine to be honest.  I have a home brand one that literally has a red sticker on the cable that says "for DIY use only" LOL

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Spyros said:

In the world of drills the hierarchy is: high end (Hilti, Festool, Mafell) mid-range/tradie's typical choices (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch (blue), Makita), entry level (Ryobi, Bosch (green), various glorious old brand names that have been bought by China Inc. like AEG, Black & Decker etc)

For most people the entry level ones are perfectly fine to be honest.  I have a home brand one that literally has a red sticker on the cable that says "for DIY use only" LOL

just my two cents on tools example=  You can buy the best drill and it still wont drill with crappy drill bits or you can buy a crappy drill and it will drill well with high quality drill bits. This is where i have seen most folks  new in trades failing. they gotta have the right Color power tools on site as you pointed out to look pro and be one of the guys but then they buy the crap when it comes to the bits, blades and  such. 

i've never owned upper end power tools but i buy only upper end wear parts bits blades and such they save the tool no matter how well made from destruction from overwork. 

[johnnydb]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

Nope, not me.  My prices are always figured out based on what I can charge, which is based on the competition.  I never leave money on the table, this is for people who price their stuff based on their costs.

If an iphone was based on costs it would be priced $200.

(I agree with everything else you said by the way, pricing is just my favourite nitpick :D  )

Well of course you charge what the market will bear. 

 

And an iPhone would be priced much higher than $200 if it were based on true costs. But they know that the market won't bear that...the service and all the little things that you buy for and with the iphone make up for the cheap price....kinda like the average computer printer. They are cheap to the customer but the ink cartridges (even the knockoffs) are really expensive versus their true cost of manufacturing...the printers are sold at a loss... because there's only one source for ink cartridges. And they make much more off the ink than you would think. 

(Business school graduate) sorry...can't help myself. 

 

But this does bring up another relevant point. In history there were several gold rushes. Not a single miner got rich off the gold... even those who invested vast sums into large mines made any money. But the guys who made it out the wealthiest were those who sold the mining equipment. 

Far be it for me to deprive anyone of their nickel due...it's when they want the dollars for a gold plated mouse trap to stop from losing a penny's worth of crackers that I have pause with. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, johnnydb said:

Well of course you charge what the market will bear. 

 

And an iPhone would be priced much higher than $200 if it were based on true costs. But they know that the market won't bear that...the service and all the little things that you buy for and with the iphone make up for the cheap price....kinda like the average computer printer. They are cheap to the customer but the ink cartridges (even the knockoffs) are really expensive versus their true cost of manufacturing...the printers are sold at a loss... because there's only one source for ink cartridges. And they make much more off the ink than you would think. 

(Business school graduate) sorry...can't help myself. 

 

But this does bring up another relevant point. In history there were several gold rushes. Not a single miner got rich off the gold... even those who invested vast sums into large mines made any money. But the guys who made it out the wealthiest were those who sold the mining equipment. 

Far be it for me to deprive anyone of their nickel due...it's when they want the dollars for a gold plated mouse trap to stop from losing a penny's worth of crackers that I have pause with. 

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

[johnnydb]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

The electronics suppliers of today weren't exactly having an original concept...

 

AND

 

I've been playing with cheap steel letters and my clothes iron...I set it on the cotton setting upside down using a mallet through the handle...(to keep it upside down) 

I then set the letters on it and just finished working out the details of gold foil embossing without using one of those expensive machines. (I also used a metal ruler to keep the spacing and it all straight)

It worked pretty well. Just wear gloves so you don't burn your hands and use a lot of pressure down. 

All total just $20 for the letters at Tandy. They had more expensive sets but I just wanted the capital letters

Edited October 8, 2021 by johnnydb
Additional information

[johnnydb]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

And as the Pandora Papers just revealed...this is STILL going on... except in an international level. 

[mike02130]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:15 PM, sbrownn said:

because a country makes low cost products to fill a market niche doesn't mean that they are "shoddy" workmen.  

I never made that claim.

On 10/7/2021 at 6:15 PM, sbrownn said:

Maybe you should take a closer look at the environmental regulations that US corporations avoid by manufacturing in foreign countries. 

I am aware of them..  I try damn hard to avoid buying from them.

On 10/7/2021 at 6:27 PM, sbrownn said:

The Chinese were making high quality leatherwork 5000 years before America ever existed...do you think they have somehow have lost that skill set?

I don't believe the conversation was about leather goods, was it?

Your little polemic fails in so many ways. What is your point?

Some prefer quality over "quantity".  I prefer quality.  You seem to prefer mediocrity.  Like they say, those who die with the most tools wins.  How are those coal and wine and beef exports doing from your country?  Go tell those workers your defense of buying low-cost imports and see what they say.

Edited October 9, 2021 by mike02130
added info