Help! Presser foot not moving, needle foot going wrong direction, Techsew 4100

[YinTx]

Maybe someone can help me out with this frustration.  After 6 years of the machine collecting dust because it won't sew, I've been tinkering with it because I have some projects that just need a sewing machine to be finished.  So here is where I am at:  tried @Uwe's video showing how to set timing, not working for me.  Looks simple, but not happening.  When I loosen the hex head bolt to adjust the shuttle hook, adjust it, then you have to rotate the handwheel back so you can tighten the bolt, which means the shuttle hook is defacto put back out of timing because it stays still while the shaft moves.  WTH?  The best I can get is the hook not retracting (sticks out 1/8") at it's furthest back otherwise it will not interact with the needle correctly (ie, completely misses the needle, which will already be up before the hook comes to try to catch a loop).  At just short of 20 degrees is when the hook and the needle cross, not the 30 degree mark.

Also, trying to set the presser foot and needle bar foot coordination, but it isn't happening either.  Tried a hundred different guesses also, none working.  Always, the needle bar foot is going up when the needle is going down.  And the presser foot hardly moves (5mm lift).  Anyone have a simple way of setting this?  Once again, tried to follow @Uwe's video, set the linkages vertical.  Now its a disaster.  Clearly I am doing something wrong, or something is set up backwards or I don't know.  What should I be looking at?

 

The video I made in 2015 clearly shows my issue, which I didn't know I had at the time.  You can see at the 2:47 minute mark when I spin the hand wheel how bad the foot coordination is.  Other than that, the rest of the video is just discussing the binding issues, which seem to have been reduced significantly.  If you mess around with the linkages too much, it'll bind up solid again.

I would really like to get this piece of iron functional, so if anyone has tips, suggestions, clues, etc, please let me know!

YinTx

Edited November 11, 2021 by YinTx

[RockyAussie]

On 11/11/2021 at 2:36 PM, YinTx said:

 When I loosen the hex head bolt to adjust the shuttle hook, adjust it, then you have to rotate the handwheel back so you can tighten the bolt, which means the shuttle hook is defacto put back out of timing because it stays still while the shaft moves.

After you have determined that you have the needle bar set at the right height,  Open the stitch length lever to the widest possible stitch all the way out. Take the needle down to the bottom and keep going untill the needle is just about to start coming up. At this point the hook should be sticking out about 1mm. If not then loosen the 6mm Allen head bolt then keep going back and forward nipping up the allen head a little at different spots until you get it right.  Unless you get this part right first there is no point doing any other adjustments.

[YinTx]

12 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

After you have determined that you have the needle bar set at the right height,  Open the stitch length lever to the widest possible stitch all the way out. Take the needle down to the bottom and keep going untill the needle is just about to start coming up. At this point the hook should be sticking out about 1mm. If not then loosen the 6mm Allen head bolt then keep going back and forward nipping up the allen head a little at different spots until you get it right.  Unless you get this part right first there is no point doing any other adjustments.

I have this part adjusted to where the point sticks out about 1mm.  I am studying the following video to see if the eccentric cam has slipped on the shaft...  at the 1:40 mark, my machine is doing the opposite of what @Uwe indicates it should be at, which may explain why the feet move opposite of what they should.  I'm trying to figure out how to adjust this cam...

 

[YinTx]

45 minutes ago, YinTx said:

 I am studying the following video to see if the eccentric cam has slipped on the shaft...  at the 1:40 mark, my machine is doing the opposite of what @Uwe indicates it should be at, which may explain why the feet move opposite of what they should.  I'm trying to figure out how to adjust this cam...

Eureka, this has the needle foot going in the right sequence!  The cam was 180 out of sync...  now I need to figure out how to get the presser foot to lift...

YinTx

[RockyAussie]

@YinTx, Now if you have the needle bar and hook in their right place I think you should follow the steps as in this Video by Uwe. It does get to the end alright if you just follow the sequence in the order he has shown.

 

[YinTx]

9 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

@YinTx, Now if you have the needle bar and hook in their right place I think you should follow the steps as in this Video by Uwe. It does get to the end alright if you just follow the sequence in the order he has shown.

 

That was the video I was referencing on my first post. I spent many hours back and forth with it. For some reason, the numbers on this machine don't match his, could be because this is a Techsew and not a Juki?  After I finish stitching the jobs I have, I may play with it some more to see if I can get them closer to his.

 I am beyond ecstatic that I have finally gotten the feet to sequence correctly, after finding the camshaft out alignment 180 degrees.  Supposedly per the individual I purchased it from, this went back to the supplier to fix when it was purchased new, and they sent it back this way, and it has never sewn correctly.

Right now, I am getting it to stitch, feet march correctly, both feet lift, backstitching works, tension is good, only complaint I have is the rear presser foot seems to be a bit jerky moving up and down, not too smooth at all.  It is very well oiled, so not that.

YinTx

[YinTx]

  psshee-eeww.  spoke too soon.  Stitched about 1.5 feet, then bent a needle and now tearing thread.  Going to have to take it apart again and see if it damaged the hook.  Tired, going to have to do it tomorrow.   Open to suggestions on other things to try in the morning tho!

YinTx

[kgg]

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

only complaint I have is the rear presser foot seems to be a bit jerky moving up and down, not too smooth at all.  

I would checkout this video as it adjusts a set screw behind the small horizontal plate that adds or releases tension on the up and down movement of the rear pressor foot shaft. May help in reducing the jerky movement. The video is called "Techsew 4100 Trouble shoot"

Link: youtube.com/watch?v=NHswdukpWog&t=600s

kgg

 

[YinTx]

6 minutes ago, kgg said:

I would checkout this video

  That is me in the video, that is the machine, still not happy after all these years.    I'm going to figure this bugger out tho.

YinTx.

[kgg]

24 minutes ago, YinTx said:

That is me in the video, that is the machine,

What a shame, that video was from back in 2015. I did wonder after watching both of the video's if he (now I know it was you) ever got it working correctly.

kgg

[RockyAussie]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

Right now, I am getting it to stitch, feet march correctly, both feet lift, backstitching works, tension is good, only complaint I have is the rear presser foot seems to be a bit jerky moving up and down, not too smooth at all.  It is very well oiled, so not that.

Have a look at this before you go any further as it will only take a minute to find out. With your presser feet down, take the top foot pressure adjustment thing right out as shown below -

Then lift the feet up and the spring will be easy to grab out

With the Cowboy machines they come with 2 different springs, one for softer work and one for the hard stuff which is most likely the one you have in there.

These buggars are not squared off on the end like they should be. This shows one end -

this shows the other -

Sometimes if you are lucky one end will be near to square and if you put the squared off end in first you may find that the feet now don't bind up on the shaft when they lift. When the spring is under pressure and it is not squared off it pushes the coil above on an angle enough to make it rub a lot into the presser bar shaft which is what I have found the problem to be previously.

What I do to rectify is sand them down until they are flat and to make that easy I have a wooden block with a squared off notch attached to the bed of my belt sander as shown

Then on and off I sand it down until its fairly level on both ends.

This has worked very well to fix this issue for me so I would do it first before adjusting anything further.

P.S. I broke a needle a couple of months back myself but I'm not telling anyone here about that

[alpha2]

Hey, Rocky, no need to describe how you broke a needle, it's enough to know you do that, too!

[YinTx]

On 11/15/2021 at 3:21 AM, RockyAussie said:

This has worked very well to fix this issue for me so I would do it first before adjusting anything further.

 

The impatient side of me took over, and I did the other adjustments first.  The spring looks like it could be squared off, so I'll have to get a grinder out and get after it.  I've been out of commission here for a couple of days, I'm semi-back.  A lot of adjusting on this machine, including having to center the needle over the feed dog - it was hitting the back of the hole!  Had to figure out where that adjustment was on my own, I didn't see anything in literature or in YouTube that had it.  Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I couldn't find it.  Suffice to say, I found the screw to turn.

Adjusted the presser foot to needle foot timing some more, needle bar height,  hook timing again, took the hook out and removed the burr and scratches, then polished it up with 2000 grit, cleaned the race, put everything back together, and seems to be stitching pretty good.  At least the best it has ever stitched, considering the foot coordination is finally right probably for the first time in it's existence.  I was able to stitch up the stockings I was making, but unfortunately am unable to get it to backstitch - the hook will not catch the thread off the needle in reverse.  Suspect it needs more hook timing adjustments?  On the plus side, it is not shredding thread anymore.  I'm feeling confident enough in the progress of the machine to go looking for some 794 needles in different sizes!  I'll post up a video of it running as soon as I can, perhaps someone can see something it isn't doing correctly that I am unaware of.  Thank you all for the continued help.

 Still troubleshooting the inability to backstitch, the odd alignment of the linkages to get the presser foot to lift, and the clunky clunk noise it makes as it lifts the presser foot.

YinTx

[RockyAussie]

8 minutes ago, YinTx said:

Still troubleshooting the inability to backstitch, the odd alignment of the linkages to get the presser foot to lift, and the clunky clunk noise it makes as it lifts the presser foot.

Sounds like some progress. The clunky noise just may be that spring being bent over into the presser bar shaft as it lifts. I would do that squaring up first. If it is not missing going forward but is in reverse ....I have to ask what needle size thread size and point tip you are running???

It may be just that the the needle is not angled right. A picture would help. It may be that if your using a light gauge needle it is too far away from the hook. That can be adjusted with shims normally but I you may not want to do that in a hurry if you are planning on using a thicker needle and thread combination. I don't think that any timing adjustments will come into it if it stitches forward but not in reverse. Make sure you are using a new needle.

[RockyAussie]

Had another thought........If you loosen your presser foot off enough to lift the feet up with your thumbs (that is often about the right setting on light stuff for me) when you lift them up high does your top back tension discs open up. In other words when you are stitching something thicker than 3/8" does that top back tension discs open up some??

[RockyAussie]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:59 AM, alpha2 said:

Hey, Rocky, no need to describe how you broke a needle, it's enough to know you do that, too!

Hep.... luckily I'm not a commercial pilot flight instructor I reckon Or firearms instructor either I spose. Well I missed by ....that much or would you believe ....................that much?

Edited November 19, 2021 by RockyAussie

[toxo]

On 11/14/2021 at 11:47 PM, YinTx said:

I have this part adjusted to where the point sticks out about 1mm.  I am studying the following video to see if the eccentric cam has slipped on the shaft...  at the 1:40 mark, my machine is doing the opposite of what @Uwe indicates it should be at, which may explain why the feet move opposite of what they should.  I'm trying to figure out how to adjust this cam...

 

This video helps my problem but the two screws that Uwe is call the eccenter look the same to me except one of them is in a groove in the shaft so I figured I shouldn't mess with that. The Singer 111 service manual says loosen one and turn the other to move the outside presser foot but I got no joy doing that. I'll have another go doing it Uwe's way even if I have to move the screw out of the groove.

[YinTx]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:35 PM, RockyAussie said:

Sounds like some progress. The clunky noise just may be that spring being bent over into the presser bar shaft as it lifts. I would do that squaring up first. If it is not missing going forward but is in reverse ....I have to ask what needle size thread size and point tip you are running???

It may be just that the the needle is not angled right. A picture would help. It may be that if your using a light gauge needle it is too far away from the hook. That can be adjusted with shims normally but I you may not want to do that in a hurry if you are planning on using a thicker needle and thread combination. I don't think that any timing adjustments will come into it if it stitches forward but not in reverse. Make sure you are using a new needle.

I did have to do some more timing adjustments after all that, and in general it will catch the thread on backstitching now.  It does still miss occasionally, maybe something I am doing wrong as an operator?  I am using a 794 needle, size 23, with a 207 thread in this latest run.  Brand new, just got the package this week in the mail.  The other needle as far as I know was new, but was a size 25 and if I recall correctly, was using a 277 thread.

 

On 11/18/2021 at 8:50 PM, RockyAussie said:

Had another thought........If you loosen your presser foot off enough to lift the feet up with your thumbs (that is often about the right setting on light stuff for me) when you lift them up high does your top back tension discs open up. In other words when you are stitching something thicker than 3/8" does that top back tension discs open up some??

I did not see the back plates opening at all when stitching heavy leather.  I'll see what happens when I lift it with my thumbs next time I'm working with it.  Currently, the presser foot does not raise very much, if I adjust the feet to allow this, it results in binding.  I still have to take the presser foot spring and grind it flat, we'll see how that goes.  Meanwhile, I did manage to successfully stitch this bible cover with it!

YinTx

[kgg]

4 hours ago, YinTx said:

I did have to do some more timing adjustments after all that, and in general it will catch the thread on backstitching now.  It does still miss occasionally, maybe something I am doing wrong as an operator?  I am using a 794 needle, size 23, with a 207 thread in this latest run.

I think the the problem of missed stitches and catching on the back stitching is the size of needle for the size of thread you are using. A good reference for needle selection would be the one Toledo has on their website ( tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html ). For V207 you would need a #24 or possibly a #25 needle for thick / sticky / multi layers to create a hole large enough so the top thread can be caught correctly by the hook.

kgg

 

[RockyAussie]

14 minutes ago, kgg said:

I think the the problem of missed stitches and catching on the back stitching is the size of needle for the size of thread you are using. A good reference for needle selection would be the one Toledo has on their website ( tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html ). For V207 you would need a #24 or possibly a #25 needle for thick / sticky / multi layers to create a hole large enough so the top thread can be caught correctly by the hook.

kgg

 

You just beat me on that almost word for word.

[RockyAussie]

5 hours ago, YinTx said:

I did have to do some more timing adjustments after all that, and in general it will catch the thread on backstitching now.  It does still miss occasionally, maybe something I am doing wrong as an operator?  I am using a 794 needle, size 23, with a 207 thread in this latest run.  Brand new, just got the package this week in the mail.  The other needle as far as I know was new, but was a size 25 and if I recall correctly, was using a 277 thread.

 

I did not see the back plates opening at all when stitching heavy leather.  I'll see what happens when I lift it with my thumbs next time I'm working with it.  Currently, the presser foot does not raise very much, if I adjust the feet to allow this, it results in binding.  I still have to take the presser foot spring and grind it flat, we'll see how that goes.  Meanwhile, I did manage to successfully stitch this bible cover with it!

YinTx

Good looking job @YinTx Happy to see you have it nearly all working now.

[YinTx]

So, I left the large needle in there, and stepped the thread down to 138 top 90 bottom.  Stitched the next bible cover, and lo, knots akimbo.  Thread path is fine, coming off the spool fine, nothing that should have been interfering with the tension that I could find, but there it is.  Every other stitch the knot is on the bottom.  And aren't these ginormous holes for the thread?

What am I doing wrong this time, lol?

 

 

[kgg]

7 minutes ago, YinTx said:

What am I doing wrong this time, lol?

What I would try in a small sample is backing off the bottom thread tension slightly first then if that didn't work increase the top thread tension slightly. I still think the #23 needle maybe creating a too small of a hole in the that particular leather. There might also be some thread related issues like thread consistency, size of thread spool (8oz vs 16 oz), brand name thread versus cheap china stuff, thread type (bonded nylon vs bonded nylon). The reason I mention thread is I am also seeing thread strand twisting and separation on some of the stitches. Which maybe a result of the distance from the top of the thread spool to the first guide in the thread spool stand being to small as it needs to be 2.5 times the height of the thread spool to help remove twisting of the thread or thread backlash or a bad spool of thread.

kgg

[RockyAussie]

14 hours ago, YinTx said:

So, I left the large needle in there, and stepped the thread down to 138 top 90 bottom.

It looks to me like you have used the 25 needle with that 138/90 thread mix.(Bad choice) Particularly in firmer veg type leather when you use an oversize hole you give the knots very little resistance to set in a predictable way. I would recommend using the 23 needle with 138 top and bottom as a starting point. If there is still inconsistencies then check that the bobbin shaft has no threads or burs that stop the thread pulling out smoothly. After that pull the top thread down by hand and watch the primary tension plates for even movement. There should be a couple of felt washers in there on either side of the centre piece and some times it can help to dissemble them and check for any catching burs and the like then give them a few drops of oil before reassembling them.