Thread size for sewing machines, can someone explain the numbers?

[Mulesaw]

Like the title says, can anyone give some sort of explanation about the thread size used for sewing machines? I have tried searching the forum, but still haven't found an answer. 

I read about #504 and#207, #74 etc, and I have to admit that I don't understand any of it. Apparently someone uses a thinner thread for the bobbin than for the upper thread, but again without the knowledge I'm just using the same size in both which might not be the optimal solution. The thread that I buy doesn't even have those numbers put on them, so I just try to guess my way. 

So far I use the Serafil 10 on the old harness stitcher, and Serafil 40 for the patcher.

But I would like to know if anyone has got a chart that would compare the European sizes with the # sizes.

Or if someone can link to an old thread that will explain it :-)

 

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Mulesaw said:

But I would like to know if anyone has got a chart that would compare the European sizes with the # sizes.

I good chart can be found at (https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html) also you should normally use the same size thread on the top as you use in the bobbin. The strength of the seam will be limited to the strength of the smallest thread size. Sometimes this is done for the look that a larger top thread gives or sometimes you can fool a machine into using a larger top thread then the machine is rated for by using the smaller machine rated bobbin thread.

kgg

[Mulesaw]

14 minutes ago, kgg said:

I good chart can be found at (https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html) also you should normally use the same size thread on the top as you use in the bobbin. The strength of the seam will be limited to the strength of the smallest thread size. Sometimes this is done for the look that a larger top thread gives or sometimes you can fool a machine into using a larger top thread then the machine is rated for by using the smaller machine rated bobbin thread.

kgg

Thanks a lot :-)

That was just what I was looking for.  When I bought needles for my machines, I just sort of picked different sizes so I had some of both ends of the specter, not knowing if a size 80 needle was bigger or smaller than a size 110. 
 

The smaller bobbin thread thing I have never tried, I have just seen it mentioned here a couple of times and thought that I most likely missed out on something. But I think I'll just keep on using the same size thread for top and bottom. 

Again thanks for helping.

 

Brgds

Jonas 

 

 

[DrmCa]

Also:
https://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=nylon-thread-information

https://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=needle_system_conversion_table

[Mulesaw]

14 minutes ago, DrmCa said:

Also:
https://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=nylon-thread-information

https://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=needle_system_conversion_table

Thanks, those are great links as well. Especially the one about the needle information. 

Whenever I tried to Google for some answers, mostly regular sewing machines turned up.

Brgds

Jonas

[chrisash]

69 thread, T70 and Ticket 20 are all the same size, in Europe many sewing supplies mark this as 20s, size 92 as 30s and size 138 as 20s

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by chrisash

[Mulesaw]

@chrisash Thanks, It's just so overwhelming when I read another thread with some information that I could benefit from, and then it translates to pure gibberish in my head because I don't understand what is meant with the sizes mentioned.

Brgds

Jonas

[Gymnast]

Hello Jonas

Amann Serafil thread got good quality, and I have used it a lot, and it is easy to buy in Denmark. It is a polyester thread. On the Amann website you can find the recommended needle sizes for it. Nylon thread is a bit thicker and almost the same thickness as the polyester thread for the same weight, because the density of polyester is a bit higher than nylon.
https://www.amann.com/products/product/serafil/

I think the link proposed by kgg to Toledo provides a good table to you as to the thread size specifications most used on this website. But there is more systems to define thread sizes than that, and some of them can be quite difficult to figure out.

/Viggo

[chrisash]

 Sorry my Mistook it should read

69 thread, T70 and Ticket 40 are all the same size, in Europe many sewing supplies mark this as 40s, and size 92 as 30s and size 138 as 20s

 

[Mulesaw]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

 Sorry my Mistook it should read

69 thread, T70 and Ticket 40 are all the same size, in Europe many sewing supplies mark this as 40s, and size 92 as 30s and size 138 as 20s

 

No problem, ;-)

Being an engineer I really need to get my head into gear to compute anything that isn't just a diameter measurement.  (Not that it would do any damage to once in a while challenge the brain)

Cheers

Jonas

[Mulesaw]

@Gymnast 

Hi Viggo

I ended up buying Serafil because it was what I could get easily. I am thinking about getting some braided thread instead of spun, though I am not sure if it would be better, I would just like to try it so see if there is any difference.

Brgds

Jonas 

 

[DrmCa]

Braided is for hand-stitching steering wheel covers.

[Mulesaw]

@DrmCa I thought it could be used for general sewing as well. I think it is what we have on the sail makers sewing machine out here.

But will it not work on sewing machines for leather? (just curious)

[Wizcrafts]

Since the subject of using hand sewing thread on a sewing machine came up in this topic, here is something new sewers need to know.

Due to the manner in which sewing machine shuttles revolve as they pick off the thread loops, most modern single needle machines will cause multi-strand thread to separate unless it is left twist thread. In the case of twin needle machines, one side must be left and the other right twist to keep the thread intact. This is important whether the thread is bonded or not.

Another matter that sometimes comes up is overly twisty and stiff bonded thread. This thread will coil clockwise as it comes off the spool and tends to form knots as it turns on itself on the way to the needle. Certain black and dark brown threads are double dyed and are extremely twisty. The best solution I've found to offset this is to feed the thread counterclockwise through two holes in a thread guide on top of the machine. The farther apart those holes are the better. I use the top and bottom holes in the top guide on my Cowboy CB4500 to counter the overly twisty thread from Weaver and others. I feed it through the top inline hole, then around towards the front, then through the bottom inline hole. This counterclockwise turn helps with twisty thread while creating the least drag on the thread. It still adds top tension that must be dealt with on the tensioners.

[Mulesaw]

@Wizcrafts That's really good info!

I have noticed the twist tendency on my patcher when using some small spools that I got from a regular sewing machine store, I can't remember the brand, but it was heavy duty thread, I would guess it to be similar to a #69 or a Serafil size 40. I'll try to see if I can re-route it the way you suggest.

I have no idea of the Amann Serafil is left or right twisted. But so far it has worked, but I don't know if that is just because my sewing machines are old? (Singer class 7 from 1905 and a 29k51 patcher from the 30'ies if I remember correctly)

 

[Gymnast]

I normally call the thread S-twisted and Z-twisted. Almost all thread is Z-twisted unless otherwise specified and can as default be used on all sewing machines except for the situation Wizcrafts points out.

We had a thread about 2½ years ago about twisting of thread:

 

[Gymnast]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:15 PM, Wizcrafts said:

In the case of twin needle machines, one side must be left and the other right twist to keep the thread intact. This is important whether the thread is bonded or not.

Is it always the case? I guess this would be the case, if the hooks are spinning in opposite directions for drop in bobbin machines. If you look this part of video, you see that the hooks spin in same direction, and therefore the hooks pass the two needles in the same geometrically way. Therefore I should think it would require the same kind of thread for both needles and bobbins.

 

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, Gymnast said:

Is it always the case? I guess this would be the case, if the hooks are spinning in opposite directions for drop in bobbin machines. If you look this part of video, you see that the hooks spin in same direction, and therefore the hooks pass the two needles in the same geometrically way. Therefore I should think it would require the same kind of thread for both needles and bobbins.

Yes, you are correct. It is only on machines where one shuttle turns clockwise and the other counterclockwise that different thread twists are advised.

The Landis 12 series sole stitching machines all require right twist (waxed linen) thread. It's likely that other old shoe sewing machines have that right, or S twist requirement.

[DrmCa]

How would a sewing machine operator in a factory know left twist thread from right twist thread when having to thread their double-needle machine? Labels have a tendency to fall off cones, after a while, and not everyone's vision is good enough to see the twist, especially in low light that some factories have.

[kgg]

47 minutes ago, DrmCa said:

How would a sewing machine operator in a factory know left twist thread from right twist thread when having to thread their double-needle machine? Labels have a tendency to fall off cones, after a while, and not everyone's vision is good enough to see the twist, especially in low light that some factories have.

Depending on what they are making and if they are using a single or double needle machine they can assume they are using for single-needle sewing machine the Z-Twist (Left Twist) or they could actually twist the end of the tread thread and see which way it starts to unravel.

Besides the size, type, weight and yards or meters of thread information on the label I think the most important information is missing. How many twists are there on that spool of thread per yard or meter not how many yards are on the spool. With more twists per yard you get a smoother stronger thread which costs more to make and buy but should give you less thread related problems.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, DrmCa said:

How would a sewing machine operator in a factory know left twist thread from right twist thread when having to thread their double-needle machine? Labels have a tendency to fall off cones, after a while, and not everyone's vision is good enough to see the twist, especially in low light that some factories have.

Sewers in factories may just sew and somebody else may change spools of thread. Just saying. I always change my own when I sew for others, but, I sometimes change thread for my replacements and oil the machines when they are done.

[JLSleather]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.....
 

I have seen the "same size" thread from different manufacturers which were NOT the same size.  I mean, 227 from Co.A and 277 from CoB were NOT the same size... VISIBLY different, no micrometer needed.

 

[Constabulary]

Industrial standard thread size is usually not calculated by diameter it is calculated by weight per 1000 meters or similar. The diameter is an approx guesstimate - in most cases to help (or confuse) the end consumer. Linen thread is another story.

Have fun with this:

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/ccdentex.htm

This table may be useful too.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Constabulary

[kgg]

8 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Have fun with this

Thread information can really send you down a never ending rabbit hole. Particularly when you compare single to two or three core.

kgg

[Gymnast]

On 1/26/2022 at 6:17 AM, kgg said:

Thread information can really send you down a never ending rabbit hole. Particularly when you compare single to two or three core.

kgg

This is from a manual of a Household Janome HD9 straight stitch sewing machine. I think it is a relative new type of sewing machine - perhaps 10 years old, but is still being sold. The only specifications I can find regarding how heavy thread or fabrics it may be able to handle is this table on page 32. Do you know what kind of threads these are?