Are leather sewing machine makers lazy

[gordond]

8 hours ago, chrisash said:

I think a few of you are missing the point, its all about marketing and selling, its not just about sewing machines,

Consider how bad it was pre internet days .. there are a few forum stories on the sheer frustration members experienced then ... And it almost continues to present day*  - which is the gist of this.. a shame really. (*except for the sellers who are bannered on this forum - who directly work one on one with their customers to get the correct setup - yes the traditional way and one has to call..but the feedback has been very good - a far cry from my part of the world - I ended calling Lenny or Gregg RIP )

Hence this forum

I found very quickly in 1983 that "you need an industrial to do that - find a specialist " and that they didn't actually exist in the country I live in.Why -  simply sales volume of commonly used equipment... A walking foot to sew upholstery vs harness machine - sales might be 40 to 1 (or none).. another point is thread size - anything above 138 these folks were lost - well out of their experience.

in my case at that time was to find a maker to advise (very reluctant to share info ..it was almost like you had to provide a secret handshake to get in - not kidding!) - and sellers were no help at all - they shouldn't have been in that business in the first place - in fact recently I've had 2 dealings where I had to advise them on what is needed - shaking my head considering they are going to incorrectly advise the next buyer and probably won't care.

It really is a specialist market.

On a side note (which piqued my interest in this post)... Been buying a lot of Triton woodworking gear - 3 units -different set ups/versions - exceedingly cheap used ($50,$65,$15) - got what I need so will sell one as have the router sled table /saw table/ extension table ... Suits my lack of space (it folds up) and will meet my needs of accuracy - can't deal with a heavy panel saw  ....and again on the cheaper cast top panel saws ~ $1400+ - it's "take it or leave it" complete with a chinglish manual - no dealer support beyond warranty.... leaving one to find other users how to assemble and tune it ..... - exactly the same issue per this post.

   ... here's a 3 hour video from the original 1984 VHS tape - nows that's the way to support and help your customer. Very smart marketing - they did well.

 

[Spyros]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:07 AM, Matt S said:

Sailrite are largely aimed at the amateur/hobby market, perhaps edging into the "sell enough to make a few bucks profit a month" level. Professionals don't tend to need to be advertised at -- if they're a small concern individual workers tend to have institutional knowledge from wherever they studied, and if they're larger concerns they either have an in-house technician to know these sorts of things or they go to a dealer and say "I need X number of machines that have Y capability. How fast do they go and what are your financing options?"

Amateur/hobby leatherwork is a vanishingly tiny market for sewing machine manufacturers. Some dealers (such as Weaver) spend considerable resources to cater to that market because they reckon it's worth it. Most don't, and I can't really blame them for that. Same for manufacturers -- I bet Juki sells 1,000 industrial machines to manufacturers for every one they sell for someone to use for a hobby or one-man-band craft business. Juki turned over $657 million last year, and I doubt if even one tenth of a percent of that was selling industrial sewing machines to amateurs or hobbyists. I certainly don't call it laziness if they think they have bigger fish to fry than spoon-feeding Bill from Thraxton on the nuances between a pendulum and parallel feed.

I think you have it backwards here Matt.  

From page 14 in Juki's corporate report, their sales (in value) are 61% household and 39% industrial.   For their industrial sector, in page 21, they list their 2nd and 3rd main services (after #1 "providing reliable machines") as:

2. Providing sewing machine functions and sewing knowledge at the workshop. We hold workshops periodically with customers to deepen their knowledge about sewing and their experience with sewing machine functions by dividing the sewing hobby genres into “dressmaking,” “small articles and bags,” “doll costumes,” and “quilts.” The workshops are directed by artists who excel at producing the articles with the best machines for the task. 

3. Providing sales and technical support covering the world. Our customers are supported by a global sales and technical network for industrial sewing machines. JUKI holds various workshops on sewing machine mechanisms, techniques to achieve beautiful seams, and methods to use and maintain products to offer “peace of mind.”

And if you go to their website, under "Industrial sewing machines", there is a crapload under E-Learning, workshop design, parts list, manuals, the lot.

 

Now, that's Juki, their industrial sewing machine sector is worth about $300m sales a year, so they're big enough and sell expensive machines.   So you could say they are mainly aimed at big, automated industrial operations who can afford these prices.  And still they offer *a lot* of education and support.

The cheaper ones (basically the clones, Cowboy/Cobra/Techsew) absolutely have a significant clientele of one man operations and hobbyists for their industrial machines, as proven for example by this video: 

 

This video has 80k views, that's not the technician at the Nike factory or the procurement manager at Luis Vuitton watching it, they have better sources and they wouldn't buy clones anyway.  That's 80k randoms like me who have bought it or are close to buying it and are scrambling for resources to figure out how the damn thing works.   And 80k customers/potential customers for a very specialised machine in a very small & niche market is a *huge* number for those small companies.

The point I'm trying to make is that providing information and support to all types of customers is absolutely in the best interest of every company, big and small alike.  It's just that some companies like Juki have the resources to do it, and others don't.

The other thing you said that professionals and big concerns don't need to be advertised at, I disagree with that as well.  They get advertised & marketed at and outright chased but through different channels: roadshows, house visits and presentations with targeted material, tenders, and outright bribes sometimes :D

And I also disagree with the idea that leatherworking is a vanishing hobby.  Maybe people are saying so because they see that Tandy is near death, but that's just because people got smarter with their shopping.   And most people find it easier to look for a video that answers their question instantly rather than post a question at LW.net and wait a day for an answer, so you won't see them in numbers in this forum either.  Youtube has given a big boost to people who google "how to make a pouch".   Just look at the views man, look at how many online shops with super-specialised stuff there are on Etsy and Ebay.  That's not vanishing, that looks more like booming to me.  

BTW out of curiosity, what are the considerable resources that Weaver has invested in the hobbyist market?   Chuck Dorsett doing a series of short videos by himself and sending some stuff to Corter Leather and Jimmy DiResta to use online?  Is that it?

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

12 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Buy a professional/industrial grade wood lathe or any other professional/industrial grade machine of any sort and see what you get for service, training or instructions. Professional/industrial comes with the assumption that you know how to use your equipment.

I haven't bought a wood lathe, I made my own :D

But I was very close to the purchase of 5 axis C&C from Taiwan for a cabinet making operation 3 years ago (the owner is a friend), and these people in Taiwan were connected online 24/7 and monitoring & tuning the machine remotely from their head office, and they had a tech 24/7 chat service because that was their preferred mode of communication.  Which actually worked very well because talking on the phone to someone with a accent can be exhausting.  I also remember they didn't have a dealer in AU so a guy flew in for a week for the installation and training.  It took weeks to get the thing perfect, after that the cabinet maker's questions dwindled, but they remained available and kept monitoring the machine online.   

But that machine was in the hundreds of thousands.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

By the way, I don't think that the 441 and various clones are actual industrial machines.  I know we call them that to differentiate from household fabric machines, and maybe they were industrial years ago, but not in 2022.  Why do I say this?  Because if you look at what Juki recommends on their website to actual industrial manufacturing operations, the type that have a whole factory floor full of machines, they recommend computerised machines.  Juki sells automation, remote monitoring, robotic arms, and integrated connected systems of all sorts.

The machines that we buy and talk about here are just machines suitable for leather, that's all.  And it wouldn't surprise me if they are sold predominantly to small businesses and hobbyists, and maybe some cheaper mass production operations in places with cheap labour.    

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[chuck123wapati]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

I haven't bought a wood lathe, I made my own :D

But I was very close to the purchase of 5 axis C&C from Taiwan for a cabinet making operation 3 years ago (the owner is a friend), and these people in Taiwan were connected online 24/7 and monitoring & tuning the machine remotely from their head office, and they had a tech 24/7 chat service because that was their preferred mode of communication.  Which actually worked very well because talking on the phone to someone with a accent can be exhausting.  I also remember they didn't have a dealer in AU so a guy flew in for a week for the installation and training.  It took weeks to get the thing perfect, after that the cabinet maker's questions dwindled, but they remained available and kept monitoring the machine online.   

But that machine was in the hundreds of thousands.

so whats you point? You have proven you don't really need a video , 24 /7 backup, instant service and training  if you know what you are doing. Plus you almost bought something and almost knew how well the service was? but they didn't really have a dealer in you whole country to go to for service even for a hundreds of thousands of dollar machine.

[Spyros]

15 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

so whats you point? You have proven you don't really need a video , 24 /7 backup, instant service and training  if you know what you are doing. Plus you almost bought something and almost knew how well the service was? but they didn't really have a dealer in you whole country to go to for service even for a hundreds of thousands of dollar machine.

You said to me "Buy a professional/industrial grade wood lathe or any other professional/industrial grade machine of any sort and see what you get for service, training or instructions."  And I said my friend the cabinet maker did, and got a lot of service, training and instructions.  And monitoring, and 24/7 support.  

The lathe I made is only good for wooden handles and pens, which is what I made it for.  It's primitive, a toy. 

I'd never pay any kind of serious money for a machine without proper support.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spyros

[Gulrok]

The reality of the matter is there is so much information available for these machines with these forums, youtube videos by al-bane and others, along with facebook groups. 

Tips and Tricks with Cobra Class Leather Working Equipment | Facebook
Leather Machine Co Inc - YouTube
Techsew Industrial Sewing Machines - YouTube
HighTex Heavy sewing technology - YouTube (Cowboy)

There isn't a big need for the distributors to produce lengthy videos as at this point theres so much information out there. You can get on the phone and get support quickly.  I'm sure there are distributors/manufactures out there who provide a higher level of service, but you're paying for it. 

I own a laser cutter that costs 5-10x what these sewing machines cost. I get more support with my sewing machine than a laser cutter company so busy with orders and other customers that if there WAS an issue I would be out of production for days. If there is an issue I'm better off purchasing replacement parts myself than warranty a piece because of the time that it takes. Its an industrial machine. I could have spent another $10,000 to get someone to answer the phone faster, but I'm a crafty person and can diagnose and address issues.

We just spent approximately 40,000$ on 2 Melco embroidery machines. Melco is flying people out to have a training session at our family business location. Melco has some of the support out there in the embroidery world, but you pay for it. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Gulrok