Stitching

[tsunkasapa]

23 minutes ago, Selvune said:

Yes, I see quite a few issues with stiching and the opening cut at the bottom, but for a very first attempt, I am pleased.  Can't wait to see the improvement as time goes on. 

Very nice for a first go. And that is how we ALL learn. Do it, see what you don't like and change it next project.

[Selvune]

1 minute ago, tsunkasapa said:

Very nice for a first go. And that is how we ALL learn. Do it, see what you don't like and change it next project.

Thank you.  

[MtlBiker]

42 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

i tend to talk of either tool in stitches per inch,makes life more understandable than mm's. you can also talk about spacing wheels and such then in the same context. i use 1 mm theread with 7 spi chisels they are the craftool fine diamond in 3.5mm. I feel that thicker thread looks better in most cases than thiner thread no matter the spacing.

Thank you (again!) Chuck.  I've just ordered that chisel in 3.5mm, both 8 and 2 prong.  That size should fit right between what I have now, and would be much better (as you said) for the 1.0 Ritza thread.

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

Thank you!  But just to confirm, even though it says "3mm" the point-to-point distance is 5mm.  And that's good with 2 x 6oz and 1.0 Ritza thread?  Or were you thinking it would be 3mm spacing?  (Sorry, just want to be really clear on this.)

And thanks also for the link to that topic.  I will read through it all tonight when I get home.  I had just assumed those items were the same... you say tomato I say tomato. 

Cheers!
 

I have a set of those same stitching irons and they are fine for bigger work.  I'd use smaller on wallets and small items.  But on a holster or a bag, perfect.

[Tugadude]

1 hour ago, Selvune said:

Well, "first" official project completed.  Not the prettiest, but functional

 

Yes, I see quite a few issues with stiching and the opening cut at the bottom, but for a very first attempt, I am pleased.  Can't wait to see the improvement as time goes on.  Thanks again for all the advice.

 

Functional is good!  Don't worry, it gets better!  Make sure you are drawing a straight line to punch along.  Yours look pretty decent until it gets to the turn and then it is too close to the edge.  On trick that some do is to allow just a bit of extra leather at the edge and then cut it back after the stitching is complete.  I don't bother with it now, but when I first started I wish I'd have known about it.  And always use the 2-prong tool around the corner.  

When saddle stitching you want the needle to do the exact same thing every time.  That's how you get consistency.  Nigel Armitage's videos on youtube are great in my opinion.  He gives a lot of pointers that he's learned over time.  Keep up the good work!

[Tugadude]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:12 PM, Spyros said:

 

So I'm gonna go ahead and be the heretic in the room and I will say that I disagree with all those videos, and pretty much everything else I've seen on youtube  

Maybe they are a start for beginners?  Maybe. But I think those steps they describe are unnecessarily complicated and slow, for a couple of reasons:

First, I think that using a stitching pony or a clam is a bad idea.  I think the clam was a necessity when people were using awls, but most people use chisels these days.   So what happens with the pony or clam is, if you notice in all those videos, those guys are always demonstrating with a nice, small and flat piece of leather.  Perfect for clamping.  But what about when you have a whole bag or a difficult stitch in a gusset, or some 3 dimensional object that you can't possibly mount on a pony without damaging it?  You will sooner or later find yourself in a situation where you have to stitch without a pony, and then if you try to follow all those steps in the video you will realise that you need 3 hands to do it, and then you're stuck.  Nobody needs a pony, it just adds unnecessary steps.  Maybe as a beginner they do, until they get the hang of stitching, but after that I think people are better off ditching it entirely and teach themselves to stitch without.

Second, I think it's a bad idea to start a stitching from the left needle.   Particularly when you've made the holes with chisels, which most of us do.  The reason is that we typically punch the leather from the skin side (the "good" side) and that makes the holes on that side much better formed and visible and easier to pass a needle through.  So that's the side you want to first pass your needle through, it is much much easier, and that is the right hand side on the video.  The exit holes on the other side are practically invisible most of the time. And what he does to overcome this is first pass the right needle to open up the hole so he can actually see it from the left, and then starts the stitching from the left.  That's another unnecessary step (which requires 3 hands if you don't use a pony)

Then I don't know why you have to make a cross or cast the thread while you're passing the needle from the holes.  What these steps do can much more easily be achieved afterwards, by simply arranging your hands so that threads can cross or not cross each other as they need to.

Personally I've stopped doing all those things on those videos and I reversed engineered my stitching down to the bare essentials.  I never use a pony or a clam, I don't start stitching from the faraway hole to come towards me ( I do the opposite), I don't cross the needles or cast the thread, and I don't first widen the hole with the right needle so I can see it from the left, I just start each stitch with the right hand needle first .  All those things combined make it way faster and easier.

You're probably thinking my stitching looks crap now LOL

Well, this is the result that I typically get.  Front:

Back:

If that is not good enough, then ok, it's not good enough. 

But that's how I do it.  And when I was doing it as described in those videos I was getting pretty much the same result anyway, because effectively I'm doing the same thing, but without all those steps and ponies.

I think what all those videos do is convey methods and wisdom that have been passed down from generation to generation, but I think that wisdom hails from a time where chisels didn't exist, and you needed something to hold your work while you're dealing with the awl and the needles.  With the high quality chisels that we have these days I think there are simpler and faster ways to stitch.

Whatever works for you is right for you.  Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  I pride myself on getting a good slant and it is obvious you've got it figured out.  So keep on keeping on!

[Spyros]

9 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

I agree 100%. I've used an awl and stitch marking wheels for 35+ years. The whole chisel thing looks like a huge waste of time.

But (other than you becoming really quick with an awl over the years), how can it be explained that making the holes one at the time with an awl is faster than making them 10 at the time with a chisel?

[tsunkasapa]

2 minutes ago, Spyros said:

But (other than you becoming really quick with an awl over the years), how can it be explained that making the holes one at the time with an awl is faster than making them 10 at the time with a chisel?

Read what all you guys post about using them and get back to me.

[Spyros]

7 minutes ago, tsunkasapa said:

Read what all you guys post about using them and get back to me.

I have and it still seems faster to use chisels to me, if it didn't I wouldn't be asking you.

[tsunkasapa]

Punching the front, then the back. Using a block of wood to hold it down. Using an array of tools for tight curves, gentle curves, straight lines. Yeah, seems WAY faster than gluing, stabbing, stitching.

[fredk]

Each to their own way

For a lot of my stitching I use these pliers for making the holes. They are really fast in use. I can go around the perimeter of a book cover for an A6 book in just about 2 minutes [I've timed it]. A few minutes longer for a cover for an A5 sized book

Available with 4 teeth/prongs and 2 teeth/prongs

the type of book cover I'm talking about

Also used on the perimeter of this Navigator's Board. It took only a few minutes to punch all the holes

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by fredk

[Spyros]

10 minutes ago, tsunkasapa said:

Punching the front, then the back. Using a block of wood to hold it down. Using an array of tools for tight curves, gentle curves, straight lines. Yeah, seems WAY faster than gluing, stabbing, stitching.

I'm sorry, maybe we're talking about different things here...  Why would anyone punch the front and then the back separately?  Or use a block of wood or other tools? I mean I must have made a hundred bags/belts/wallets using chisels and never done any of the things you describe.  What have I missed here?  I just glue, scribe a line and punch my holes through both layers at once.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Spyros

[tsunkasapa]

Just 85% of everything that has been said. Try using them on a holster for a large pistol that is 1/2"-5/8" in the trigger guard area. I'll  pass on chisels.

[Spyros]

 

Just now, tsunkasapa said:

Just 85% of everything that has been said. Try using them on a holster for a large pistol that is 1/2"-5/8" in the trigger guard area. I'll  pass on chisels.

I still have no idea why anyone would use anything more than a chisel and a mallet to punch it with.  That's all I use anyway, and anyone else I've seen.

I admit I don't know anything about holsters because 99% of the planet does not carry guns, just not a big market in my neck of the woods.  But you're right I guess I should qualify that when I say chisels are faster I mean in common leatherworking projects like bags/belts/wallets.  There will always be specialty stuff where specialised equipment is needed.

[Spyros]

31 minutes ago, fredk said:

Each to their own way

For a lot of my stitching I use these pliers for making the holes. They are really fast in use. I can go around the perimeter of a book cover for an A6 book in just about 2 minutes [I've timed it]. A few minutes longer for a cover for an A5 sized book

I bought a pair of those but they've been relegated to very rare and specific tasks, like trying to punch holes in awkward places where I can't use chisels easily.  With those pliers I found it very hard to keep the bottom holes well aligned on a straight line.  But maybe I was using them wrong.  How are your bottom holes?  Do you have any tips for using them better?

[tsunkasapa]

Almost all of my work is either holsters, sheaths or saddle/tack build or repair. The only belts I've done in 15 years were for me. Wallets? Did one for the grandson.

[tsunkasapa]

1 minute ago, Spyros said:

I bought a pair of those but they've been relegated to very rare and specific tasks, like trying to punch holes in awkward places where I can't use chisels easily.  With those pliers I found it very hard to keep the bottom holes well aligned on a straight line.  But maybe I was using them wrong.  How are your bottom holes?  Do you have any tips for using them better?

There were two pairs of those at the Scout camp I worked at. They had the same issue. I always assumed it was due to the abuse that a couple hundred 11-18 year old gave them.

[Spyros]

17 minutes ago, tsunkasapa said:

Almost all of my work is either holsters, sheaths or saddle/tack build or repair. The only belts I've done in 15 years were for me. Wallets? Did one for the grandson.

I know, sorry, I get it.  I must remember that not everyone does what I do.

[fredk]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

I bought a pair of those but they've been relegated to very rare and specific tasks, like trying to punch holes in awkward places where I can't use chisels easily.  With those pliers I found it very hard to keep the bottom holes well aligned on a straight line.  But maybe I was using them wrong.  How are your bottom holes?  Do you have any tips for using them better?

 

1 hour ago, tsunkasapa said:

There were two pairs of those at the Scout camp I worked at. They had the same issue. I always assumed it was due to the abuse that a couple hundred 11-18 year old gave them.

1. I've found that some of these pliers don't have the teeth sufficiently hardened, thus they can be easily bent, to varying degrees, giving a poor straight line. And its not a case of the cheapest being bad. I've found both cheap and expensive ones which had the problem. In fact my ones that I have now were quite cheap - under £10 a pair ($15?)

2. On some items I make a stitching line, top and bottom with a wing divider. Just an impression in the leather, then I put the top teeth into the line and by feel I can make sure the bottom teeth are in the bottom line. Over lap by at least one tooth, preferably two. If I'm in a real hurry I chance it and have no over lap.

3. On the Navigator's board, there was a 3mm MDF panel enclosed by the leather. I just put the plier's teeth up against the board. The board edge kept my line straight. I make other things in which I enclose thick card as a stiffener and use the pliers in the same way.

1 hour ago, tsunkasapa said:

. . . Try using them on a holster for a large pistol that is 1/2"-5/8" in the trigger guard area. I'll  pass on chisels.

yes, horses for courses. I don't make holsters or sheaths, just bags, belts, beanie type hats, light-weight stuff so my pliers work very well for me, but their maximum cut is about 4mm (10oz), they struggle at any thing over 4 mm (10oz). Also they are only good for as far as they can reach from the edge of a piece of work, about 25mm / 1 inch afair. On the Navigator's Board, the pocket, bottom right, the inside stitching line was pre- done with the pliers then an awl through the main piece after the pocket was glued down

[tsunkasapa]

11 minutes ago, fredk said:

1. I've found that some of these pliers don't have the teeth sufficiently hardened, thus they can be easily bent, to varying degrees, giving a poor straight line. And its not a case of the cheapest being bad. I've found both cheap and expensive ones which had the problem. In fact my ones that I have now were quite cheap - under £10 a pair ($15?)

Never underestimate the damage that a crew of teenage boys can do to even the best of tools. I came in the door just as one of them was hammering a scratch awl through his leather on a marble slab. He "Didn't want to scar the table top". 

[Tugadude]

This has become a silly discussion.  Everything has its place.  I do use an awl sometimes but mostly stitching chisels.  I have several sets to achieve various SPI.  
Chisels have taken the market by storm and there are literally dozens of brands/types.  Nigel Armitage used to be 100% traditional pricking iron and awl but not any longer.

I’m a hobbyist and nobody needs to take my word for it.  But there are many pros that use the chisels to help make a living.

I never punch both sides of the leather, it is quite unnecessary.  It may help to attain a better slant on the back, but there are other ways.

 

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

I never punch both sides of the leather, it is quite unnecessary.  It may help to attain a better slant on the back, but there are other ways.

Second time this is mentioned but I'm still not sure what we're talking about.  Do you mean using inverse chisels to punch the bottom layer separately?  That's a specialised technique for some very unusual situations, I've only really heard it mentioned once (by Equus leather I think) but I haven't actually seen anyone doing it.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Spyros

[Klara]

17 hours ago, Tugadude said:

People who haven't tried something probably shouldn't be pronouncing judgment.

I have tried both ways, which is how I know that I enjoy awl work more. There's situations where it's vey helpful or even necessary to have pre-punched holes, but for me those are the exceptions. Btw., my living heroine is Jo from JH Leather... (the Stohlmans are the dead ones)

It's getting OT now, but to me it looks like leatherworking is going (or has it arrived?) where knitting and woodworking have gone before: People who hardly know what they are doing are following an instructive pattern to produce something presentable as quickly as possible. Hardly anybody seems to want to learn the basics any more. I've always wondered whether that's because as adults we don't have a "good" way to dispose of our first, ugly attempts (as a child I dappled in pottery and produced ugly candleholders and sculptures - I gave them to my parents as Christmas presents and they put them in our display case). 

[Spyros]

I love Jo I think she has a super cute voice 

[tsunkasapa]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

I have tried both ways, which is how I know that I enjoy awl work more. There's situations where it's vey helpful or even necessary to have pre-punched holes, but for me those are the exceptions. Btw., my living heroine is Jo from JH Leather... (the Stohlmans are the dead ones)

It's getting OT now, but to me it looks like leatherworking is going (or has it arrived?) where knitting and woodworking have gone before: People who hardly know what they are doing are following an instructive pattern to produce something presentable as quickly as possible. Hardly anybody seems to want to learn the basics any more. I've always wondered whether that's because as adults we don't have a "good" way to dispose of our first, ugly attempts (as a child I dappled in pottery and produced ugly candleholders and sculptures - I gave them to my parents as Christmas presents and they put them in our display case). 

I think you have it exactly right.