olliesrevenge

%$#&*^% right on dude! It reminds me of that scene in 'Aliens' when Michael Biehn's character pulls a pistol grip pump shotgun out of a similar rig and says: "I like to keep this handy, for close encounters".

whinewine, I'm just a newcomer to the boards who was following with interest trying to learn something about how someone who is actually in the holster business handles legal liability. I personally know no one from these boards & I had never before read any post of yours so I can safely state that I am totally without bias here. Outside of my question about insurance (which I'll save for the end), I bring nothing here except an open mind and good reading comprehension. Initially you used some silly & obscure examples of possible liability scenarios to make a case for the fact that being sued was a remote possibility and that we should follow one of 3 courses of action... An alert reader was then later to encounter this statement... ... which seemed to indicate that you did not, in fact, personally carry insurance, and thus were obviously following either your 1st or 3rd pieces of advice. Of course, it was later discovered that you evidently operate a fully registered and insured leather business (??)... So, having read through all this apparent contradiction, I am left with just one question - What, exactly, was your point? You did seem to be arguing toward some end, but whatever it was somehow got lost amidst the blustery bravado of your rhetoric. In spite of the high "signal to noise ratio" in this thread, It was interesting to learn that even very small leather shops use LLC's and liability policies. As to my question: For those who operate an LLC and carry insurance, you would put all the business assets (tools, etc) in the LLC, and then carry a personal umbrella policy in case any litigation made it past the LLC, is that correct? Thanks!

Sweet holster dude! (Uh... the 2nd one ) ...and what a contrast from the 1st. Simple design, very nicely executed. It puts the bottom of the trigger guard right at the the top of the beltline - IMO right where it should be, and looks like it provides for a full firing grip before withdrawal. I just picked up the $70 airbrush at Harbor freight two days ago, and coincidentally, I just did my latest holster for a G26 in Fiebings pro mahogany w/ pro black trim. I had first seen that color scheme on one of Particle's avenger style holsters, and I really like the look. Your detail boning is awesome. I'm really noticing this stuff on other holsters now because detail boning is turning out to be a hurdle for me. I just cannot seem to "get it". The way your detail job goes beyond just simple lines tooled into the leather, and actually forms cleanly defined steps up and down from different "elevations" in the contours of the pistol is something that I have as of yet been unable to achieve. Now that I have a Tippmann Boss I am making several "detail practice" holsters, and I am going to take one of the free Tandy classes this Tuesday. Andy, the proprietor, has assured me he can help me with detail molding with his 30 + years of leather experience. Well see! Thanks for sharing. Lance

Here is a pic of a Tucker "Answer" for my G19. I have never personally worked w/ Kydex, so I don't have any experienced advice to give you. If I was going to try to emulate Tuckers kydex belt clips I would cut to shape using some type of small saw (scroll saw maybe), then form around a dummy 1.5" belt using my heat gun to soften the area to be bent. Anyway, the pic should give you an idea of what a possible finished result could look like.

I really like the color. It seems like the kind of color effect that looks dark (almost black) at first blush, but can be affected dramatically by the lighting and and how closely you inspect it. Very cool. I wish I had more time to experiment with that kind of stuff. What kind of thread did you use? I seems different (natural?) than the waxed nylon I got at Tandy. Lance

Max, I read your previous post about Sno Seal, but this time I checked it out. Now I have one more thing to experiment with, thanks. I read the following info from the Atsko website... Is it true that when I apply Neatsfoot oil to one of my holsters I am actually adding an animal fat that "The tannery worked hard to remove (from)...the leather", and that it will weaken and rot the leather? Or does Neatsfoot oil not count as a "animal fat"?

Exactly, I totally agree. I mean, in order to make an "exact copy" you'd have to break into Tuckers shop and steal his clicker dies for the design. Just for the record I wasn't trying to get on your case (Heck - I made an HF-1 style holster) I was just passing along the scoop that apparently Tucker supposedly can get sensitive about "his" copyright. Ever since I got that friendly PM from the gentleman in the holster biz I have been wondering about the copyright issue as it pertains to holsters. Exactly what constitutes an attempt to "copy" a design anyway? Using the same general design that attaches to the belt in the same general way? If you consider how to attach an "envelope" style holster to your belt, as best I can figure there are only about three basic ways... A single tunnel style belt loop like an old west holster uses. A tunnel style belt loop on the inside of the holster and another belt loop in the rear flap portion where the envelope is sewn together (like the Avenger design). A separate flap of leather extending to the front of the holster for the purpose of forming the front belt support loop - & another belt loop in the rear flap portion (like the HF - 1 design) I understand that every once in awhile there comes along a truly innovative design that the creator might want to protect. But to try to presume ownership of a very general and basic method of attaching a holster to the outside of a belt (if indeed that is Mr Tuckers stance) seems a bit irrational to me (of course I'm no lawyer). If anyone has knowledge of case law that has set precedent here I'd love to hear it. Cheers

It's a beautiful holster. I like the USMC black as well, I feel like it's much "blacker" than the color of the Pro black. Your molding and detail boning lines are very tastefully done IMO, not too much detail - but just the right amount. If you are interested in sharing I'd love to hear the details of how you work the boning process. How long in the water, length of casing time, what modeling tool you use, whatever... Thanks for sharing

Thanks guys! You folks really helped me to decide which machine to buy. After some careful thought, I decided to go with a used Tippmann Boss. I found it right here on Leatherworker.net in the used machine forum, for sale by Rick at the Arizona saddle and boot doctors. Rick was a pleasure to deal with, & did everything he said he was going to do. Thanks Rick! I figure if making gunleather never progresses past the "hobby" point for me, I can pretty easily live with spending about a grand on a sewing machine to fulfill my hobby. Then, if I actually become sucessful at running a small holstermaking business at some point, well then, having a thousand tied up in a used Boss will be the least of my worries. Thanks again to all who replied. Now I just have to go learn how to use this thing! See you around, Lance

It would work. Its the same frame gun, just different calibers. Although; the .380 cal Glock isn't available here in the states (as far as I know), and the .45 GAP is pretty rare just because it's an oddball caliber, so your odds of encountering either are slim. Nevertheless, anytime you make a holster for a "G19" you are making a holster for any 'compact' frame Glock. Also, if it's an open muzzle design , that same holster will also fit a 'standard' frame Glock too (as long as it is not a 10mm or a .45 ACP), the barrel will just poke out a bit. Any 'subcompact' Glock (as long as it is not a 10mm or a .45 ACP) will fit in it also, it just won't take up the whole length. The oddballs in the Glock family are the 10mm's and the .45 ACP's, which use a bigger fatter frame..... with the exception of the G36, a .45 ACP pistol which actually uses a smaller frame because of it's single stack magazine.

With all respect Twin Oaks, I'm not so sure that is good advice. If Big O actually does this, I think one of two things will happen - Either the customer won't even be able to cram the G21 into the holster at all, or, if he actually manages to get it in the thing will be stuck in there so tight he won't be able to draw it out of there quickly when he needs it. Looking at the dimension numbers is one thing, but holding the two pistols in hand is another. The G21 really is a bigger gun! I am a total beginner at holster making (as is the OP), but I have alot of experience in the use and EDC of pistols. As an experienced gunleather customer who has $1000's worth of leather in the holster "junk drawer", I can say that if a maker ever gave me the above advice, I would immediately find another maker who was willing to make the modest investment in a blue gun so that they could do it right. As a gunleather customer, I think Big O should first get the wrinkles ironed out of his designs before selling his wares. Then if he is ever confronted with an order to make a holster for a pistol he does not have an exact mold for (either real gun or blue gun), he should do one of the following... Refer the customer to another maker who can do it right.or Tell the customer the wait time will be slightly longer, and then buy a blue gun so he can do it right.My .02

I own both a G17 and a 10mm G20 (G20 is the same frame as a 21), so I'm not guessing here. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the G21 is a bigger gun. The G20 & 21 are larger frame pistols, and won't fit in a g17 holster. Take a look at the dimensions for these pistols published by Glock and you can confirm for yourself. http://www.glock.com...dex_pistols.htm Take care, Lance

Here is a close up pic of a Tucker HF1 that shows the edge of the front flap closely. The way Tucker makes it is w/ two pieces of leather... http://www.foggymoon...rs/Tucker/6.jpg More pics of the HF1... http://www.foggymoon...kerholster.html After I posted these pics of my 1st functional holster (an HF1 style) - My Holster , I received a friendly PM from a gentleman in the holster biz who informed me that Tucker has been known to get upset with those who copy his HF1. I think the only reason to be even remotely concerned about this is if you are past the point of being a "hobbyist" and are planning to market that style (although I don't proclaim to be an expert on copyright law). I don't know if Tucker was the first one to design a holster that fits the description of: "Envelope style holster w/ separate flap of leather extending to the front of the holster for the purpose of forming the front belt support loop", but he does market a commercially successful version of that style of holster and apparently will defend his copyright on the "HF1". Nice holster BTW. I am a fan of this style too as it seems to support a pistol riding high above the belt very well. Lance

"When I try new things I always use a Glock" was Bruce Gibson in this thread... http://leatherworker...showtopic=22871 Denster's Vacuum molding thread... http://leatherworker...&hl=vacuum&st=0 Where Denster bought his vacuum bag... http://www.veneersup...s/Vacuum__Bags/ Other good molding threads... http://leatherworker...=1entry140746 http://leatherworker...p?showtopic=346 http://leatherworker...=1entry143367 http://leatherworker...=1entry143769 If you were to accuse me of spending too much time reading these forums... you'd be right! Lance

Thank you Rick! Well talk again Monday. Lance

Glocks are the only guns that I have made holsters for so far. Hearing you guys talk about it makes me feel a little better for having a couple of botched early attempts. As usual I find myself admiring your work Erik. If you ever decide to do a wet molding / detail boning clinic for aspiring holster makers, let me know. I could use an excuse to go visit my mother and sisters down in Dallas. Aubrey is up near Denton right? Anyway, I have discovered that at this point I am a better engineer than I am an artist (detail boning being the art). I actually destroyed my last holster build because of a boning job gone wrong. After some serious thought I have decided to take Monica Kuehn's advice to "get the leather wet enough". Then I will completely plan out my operation, decide exactly what lines I will make, and then follow my plan to the letter. Am I correct in assuming that you are still doing it all by hand? (ie - no press or vaccuum bag) Looks great - Take care, Lance

Thanks a bunch to all who took time to share their thoughts here. I really appreciate it. If I knew for sure that I wanted to go into the leather holster making business, it seems like the no-brainer choice would be a Cobra machine. Where I'm at is at the level of serious hobbyist who is interested in making professional quality holsters for myself and a few good friends, although I have entertained the idea of going into business at some future date when my skill as a leather craftsman improves. Interestingly, you guys have convinced me to narrow my choice to either the least or most expensive option - Either the Boss or a Cobra 3 or 4 machine. In order to make that choice I need to do some thinking and more clearly define what I want to be when it comes to leather holster crafting. If I decide to be a "serious hobbyist" the Boss makes sense. If I decide to get serious about running a small leather business the Cobra Class 3 or 4 makes sense. Choices like this just can never be easy can they? I am interested in hearing more about why I should buy a Cobra 4 over a Cobra 3, if anyone cares to elaborate on it. As far as I can tell the only difference is "throat depth" (the distance from the needle to the main part of the machine, right?), and for one who would be building only holsters the Cobra 3 seems like it would do fine(?). In my understanding the recommendation to go w/ a Cobra 4 is based upon the notion that I would be setting myself up for success if I decide to manufacture larger items (like say handbags) in the future, right? I'm sure Steve at Leather Machines can explain the pro's and con's to me as well, and I do intend to call him. Thank you all, Lance

Beeswax as a backer! What a light bulb moment! No more occasional bloody fingers from using the "three finger tripod brace" method. Art, I understand sharp and smooth, but why short?

I am a beginner as well and am working on only my 6th holster, so I am by no means an expert. However, I have recently gotten my hand stitching dialed in to where I am comfortable with it. I too started out with an awl from Tandy that in my opinion was too small. The blade was only about 7/8" long and there was a cylindrical brass collet at the base of the blade that would consistently mar the leather if I pushed the blade in too far. Sewing with that thing was ridiculous, and in my opinion made a difficult task even harder than it should be. I went to Macphersons here in Seattle and bought a C.S. Osborne Awl haft and a 2" awl blade. I then sharpened the tip and both edges, and polished all 4 facets of the blade, not just at the tip but all the way up the blade. In other words, since the awl blade actually has the profile and look of a extremely miniature medieval sword, I sharpened it as if it were a sword (I did this on the advice of a guy who has done a whole bunch of hand sewing). For the 1st step I laid some 400 grit sandpaper on top of my leather strop board and , one facet at a time, wiped the awl blade diagonally away from the tip and from the edge being sharpened. Then I repeated the whole process with 600 grit. Then I repeated it all again on my crude & homemade leather strop board rubbed with jewelers rouge. As long as I keep the thing polished all the way up the blade it goes through 2 layers of 7/8 oz veg tan real easily, no wax required. I haven't done it yet, but I am considering doing a gentle polish on it with some Flitz and my dremel tool. It's all about having the whole blade polished, and sharpened like a razor not just at the tip but on the edges too. Take care, Lance

I have only been leatherworking for 2 months now but I have found that I really enjoy it and am considering taking this hobby to the next level by buying an intro level sewing machine. I mainly enjoy the creative process of creating my own patterns and tweaking holster designs of my own creation. Although I feel I have become decent at hand sewing, it is kind of a drag & is by far the most time consuming build element for a hand sewer. As far as I can tell there really are only 4 main choices for a novice holster builder like myself who is looking for the most reasonably priced sewing machine. A machine by Cowboy Sew might fit into the "intro level" category, but they do not post prices on their site and I have yet to call them. Right now the Techsew GA5-1R looks the most attractive to me. It only can sew up to 7/16" thickness (about 4 layers of 7 oz leather), but am I correct in thinking that will be enough for someone who will build only holsters? If the Boss was available for under a thousand dollars it would make it a 'no brainer' choice for me, but is the ability to sew up to 3/4" really worth the extra cost? Particularly since it is a manually operated machine? If cost was no option a TORO 3000 or a Cobra Class 3 would obviously be the way to go. But in the real world where price matters, I am forced to ask - Is the abiility to sew 3/4" or thicker leather worth the extra cost for a holster maker?and, if not... Does the quality of the Artisan or TORO machine justify the additional cost over the Techsew?I appreciate any thoughts on this stuff, particularly from experienced folks who have owned one or more of these machines. Thanks, Lance

Hey, I found a question I can answer! I have exactly 2 months experience with leatherworking & I'm currently working on only my 6th holster, but I did re-wet and reform my 4th holster. Attached is a pic of my 5th holster. My 4th was virtually identical except for the fact that my trigger guard stitching was too far away from the gun and it wound up being very loose. I rewet the holster by submerging it in water for about 10 seconds and then letting it case for about 10 minutes. I really suck at the boning process at this point so all I really did was take the handle of a Crafttool and create large indents in the triggerguard area to enhance retention. I deliberately tried to overdo it to see if it would create a danger of touching the trigger and I found this not to be the case. At any rate, I dont have much to compare to as far as experience goes, but I was able to reform my 4th holster and turn it from a turd into a functional piece of gear. Take care, Lance

That looks really cool Ray. Today I grew tired of sewing while sitting down, so I took my $20 Tandy stitching pony and clamped it into my bench vice. You want to know what I think? I think I like yours way better! What is the handle for? Is there some type of cam in there to momentarily release pressure? Take care, Lance

This site is amazing. I'm working on my 5th holster (a Bruce Nelson Professional / Avenger style), with plans to give an IWB a try for my 6th, and suddenly here is a detailed post on how to make a Milt Sparks VM2 / Brigade M11 type rig. Unreal. Thank you very much for posting this sir. I'm curious about your opinion on the addition of the draw retention device just aft of the trigger guard. Do you include this as an option simply because of customer demand? Or do you personally feel it has utility? Thanks for sharing. Lance

Thanks for posting again Eric, I really like the two tone look of the combined 'flesh side out' body w/ grain side out reinforcement piece. For an IWB it makes a huge amount of sense. May I ask how you finish the flesh side? Did you just airbrush your final finish product on at the very end (I'm guessing some type of diluted acrylic)?

I have been meaning to get this done for quite some time now. I have Particle to thank for posting his video and getting me motivated to finish this. Now that I have actually completed one I feel like the rest will come much easier. Those who know holsters will recognize this as an attempt to clone a Tucker HF1. I had 2 previous attempts at creating a holster but stopped short of completion because of serious design errors that would have rendered them unusable. This forum rocks, and I couldn't have made this without this site. For what it's worth, here is my scoop on how I did mine. Using the techniques described in mattsh's holster design post to create a pattern and build a test model out of cardboard, I came up with a pattern. Using a french curve in the initial drawing helped the lines flow more nicely than I could have done by hand alone. I then traced the pattern out on vellum paper, cut it out, then transferred it to a $15 piece of 8-9 oz leather from the scrap bin at Tandy. Since I made this holster from 8-9oz leather lined with 8-9 oz leather from the same piece, I started with 4 pieces cut slightly too large, then cut them to the final shape after gluing them together into a single laminate. Using a tip from the guy at my local Tandy shop, I made sure to glue up the 2 pieces of the main body of the holster while it was in the folded position. Had I glued it up while flat the lining piece would have scrunched up when I tried to fold it. Question: Had I done something more reasonable like line 6-7oz leather with 4-5oz leather, would I still have to glue it up in the folded position? Finished & burnished (with saddle soap and a chunk of canvas) the single thickness edges of the flap piece then glued it to the main body of the holster. Stitch grooved the flap piece. Dyed the whole thing black with some Fiebings pro oil dye soaked into a piece of wool. Ran 5 dpi stitch wheel into stitch groove then drilled the stitch holes w/ dremel tool & 1/16" bit Hand stitched the front flap onto the main body & edge stitched the flap piece all w/ one piece of pre waxed thread. Glued main body in folded position Stitch grooved the rear belt loop area, the re-dyed the groove, then stitch wheeled it, then drilled it out, then hand stitched it. Drum sanded all the multi-layer thickness edge areas w/ Dremel & drum sander bit, then re-dyed the sanded down areas, then burnished the edges. Cut belt loops w/ Dewalt cordless drill & 5/16" drill bit, and 1 1/2" chisel. Totally messed up the front loop and had to use Dremel tool w/ small drum sander bit to correct the disaster I created with the chisel. After the hard lessons learned on the front loop, rear loop went much better & required no Dremel sanding damage control. Re-dyed & burnished belt loops. Dunked the whole thing in warm water for about a minute, let it set for about 10 minutes, inserted gun, then made a futile attempt to "bone in" two layers of 8-9oz leather. Next time I'll spend the money for some real leather of the appropriate size and maybe it will turn out better. Belted it in around a 5 gal bucket and left it near a wall heater to dry. The forward rake is too much for my taste but this thing actually carries a G19 pretty nicely. Comments - suggestions welcome. Lance