tg lucas

I would not worry about anyone being upset about paint on the leather, lol, some of us use a lot of it on our projects....even some of the greatest of us use a lot...Rob Barr and Paul Burnett to name a couple. What I would be concerned about would be the abrasion factor. I used to make a lot of leather wallets with acrylic paint on them, denim and painted leather for me were natural enemies. Denim wears off the paint quickly compared to leather dyes. I got around this sorta by really sealing the wallets well with Super Sheen or Resolene but anything riding in a jean pocket is going to wear. I would hate to see such a beautiful paint job gone in just a few weeks of use. Maybe some of the other have a better solution for the abrasion problem but I switched to using mostly dyes for anything going to be handled much.

Omg it was hilarious, I was still laughing when I made it home and it took me 10 minutes to explain to my girlfriend what I thought was so funny. She kept interrupting me asking me which Coach bag it was and what style the Ug's were, lol. But you are so right about the disconnect of people, food and it's sources. I just recently sold my Boer goat farm, I think it was the only no-kill meat goat farm in Arkansas mostly due to my significant other making pets out of every one of my stock, lol. But she was raised in San Francisco so I do not need to say more. Of course, I have always believed as a society develops a higher consciousness they seem to develop a lower I.Q.

Hey that is nice, now I am going to have to tear apart one of my old hats to make me a pattern. Good job

Ronflmao, I guess sarcasm isn't big in Ken's world but it just goes to prove my point. Leather from cattle by any means acquired is still a byproduct. In twenty years of working with leather in various forms I have never had a potential customer ask how I got the leather. They are interested in the end product only. I illustrate this by a conversation I overheard while behind a couple of women in a checkout line at the grocery store the other day. One woman was chiding her companion because of the various meats she was purchasing and how she could never eat any thing with a face. Remembering this post, I started paying a little closer attention to what this woman was saying as insight is always valuable. So I listened to her expound as to the virtues of the vegetarian lifestyle and how it made her feel closer to Mother Earth. Turning around to finally take a look at this woman, I almost laughed out loud. Standing there, skinny as a rail wearing a woolen sweater dress, a wide leather belt, a pair of Ug boots and a Coach purse, the only thing that she was wearing that didn't come from something with a face was her tights (they could have been silk for that matter, but do silk worms qualify as having faces?). By her conversation she really believed in what she was saying whether or not it was this week's fad of enlightened lifestyle changes or a long held belief, but it struck me as rather shallow given the circumstances. Normally, I would not say something but I had to really bit my lip to stay quiet as she was very vocal about her ideas, but being in NW Arkansas we have an abundance of neo-hippies due to being surrounded by several colleges and the university and you can normally just ignore them. I paid for my purchases and left out of the store to the parking lot and guess who was parked next to my truck. Thats right, veggie and friend getting into a big SUV with a really nice leather package from what I could see.... and I kid you not a bumper sticker from GreenPeace and one from PETA. Well, the devil in me won out and I put on my most charming smile and approached her driver side window. As she smiled and rolled down her window a bit, I said "I heard what you were saying about about vegetarian diets and that how you would not anything with a face. It really got my attention". Bigger smile and down came the window a little more as she leaned out a bit. "Yeah" I continued, " But it makes me wonder about the five sad faced ones". She looked at me with a look of serious concern and questioning asking " Sad faced ones?" Keeping a straight face as best I could I replied "Yeah, you know, the sad faces of the cute little wooly sheep that made your boots and at least five of the big brown-eyed cows that made your belt and the seats that you and your pretty friend are sitting on". Then I just turned around walked back to my truck. As I opened my door, I flashed another charming smile, tipped my hat and got in. As backed out, she was still just staring blankly, eyes and mouth wide open as if hit in the back of the head with a 2x4. I laughed all the way home as I envisioned her on the cell phone frantically calling Daddy or maybe her husband, demanding that he sell this vehicle immediately and get her a Volt or a Leaf. Bottom line is you are more likely to get hippie protesters at your booth or show than anybody asking for leather that was "Naturally Selected". But if you ever did, would it not be nice to say "Ya know, I do have a source for just that kind of thing, it's expensive but available"

Welcome to the forum from Arkansas. Used to live up there on Mt. Hood just above Sandy

Hey Leatheroo Any tips on working out the pattern for the headlight, I wanna do that to my chopper!

I use a variety of different mauls and the quietest one is a leather headed one, for some reason it makes no where near the sound of my poly or wood ones. Also I use a rubber grip mat under my marble slab that really cuts down the sound as well.

Oh wow, I never thought that one post would have had such a carry thru from so many and on such a long range of view points. I love this website for this aspect alone. I feel compelled to add my perspective to the original post and here it is.... First of all, the product is not selling as projected or hoped for. There are many view points as to why this is the case but what are the actual reasons? From a marketing and design background of over twenty years (Most of you in America have at least one example of my work in your cabinets right now) I see a fatal flaw in the marketing of this product that is no fault of Mr. Siegel. Whenever you introduce a new product to a line of products that are well established and are a majority of your income, the new product must not be in direct competition or worse yet, demonize your older and more established line of products. To do so is a death wish to your economic stability on all fronts of your product line because it introduces doubt on various levels. Branding a product, to create a brand loyalty and eventually establish expanded additional sales is a sought after knowledge every business person in the world has struggled over since the beginning of commerce. Let us examine just this one case. The branding of "Slaughter Free" leather is problematic for the consumer as it portrays that any leather not harvested in a "slaughter free" manner has been acquired by less than humane or morally correct means. Rather if this is true are not, it still does imply a moral issue with manufacturers and consumers alike and will suffer a backlash as we have seen on this forum. What this simply translates to is the failure of expectations, if not outright death of the product. No pun intended. Hundreds of products lay in warehouses all across America because of this very lack of branding. It does not matter if the product exists as Mr. Siegel has stated a few times in his posts, if it does not sell it it is a mute issue. The obvious rejection by the majority of consumers of leather products of this forum by not purchasing the product is indicative of a absence of proper branding and education. I have no doubts of Mr. Siegel's vast knowledge of leather however marketing is a ever changing area of expertise and no one person should ever consider themselves comprehensive of all it's facets. This is the reason for the many branding companies out there, some being more successful than others depending on their individual niche and experience. Make no mistake these companies are very expensive and often used by other advertising agencies to facilitate their clients needs when millions of dollars are on the line and failure is not an option, although there are never any guarantees. The branding companies spend lots of money and time trying to understand consumer wants and needs, then translating those to clients. All of this research comes together in creating a "brand identity" and that is what we the consumer see, the logo, colors, the advantages of the new product. However as a supplier, one is also obligated to educate buyers of any shortcomings of the offered product if their are any and "manage their expectations". This kind of specialized help is, to be honest, out of financial range except for the larger companies. However; whether we produce wallets, belts, holsters and saddles or produce automobiles we are all subject to our end customer needs or wants and a more complete understanding will be the difference of shoppers versus buyers. So this would be my humble suggestion, first rebrand the product to something less controversial, for instance "Natural Selections" brand, or something in the same genre that signifies that this product is different but in no way competitive or offensive with your traditional offerings. Leather artisans and craftsman are very traditional group due to the very nature of their unique relationship with their chosen medium. They instinctively know that leather came from a living breathing animal and that their work only enhances and extends the legacy of that animal and no other group of craftsman share that "bond" save perhaps those that work with wood. They understand that each animal is different and therefor the work they will produce will be different but the relationship of artist and medium is constant. I personally as Cherokee, have have almost a spiritual bond with my craft and to some level so do most artists whether it is something that they are aware of or would admit to in varying degrees. To imply, even most innocently, that my art or livelihood is some manner is less than morally honorable with have an immediate and intense reaction, most likely being negative to any product being offered. Most of us have a fairly decent functioning moral compass and would shy away from any product that we felt was damaging our environment or was endangering to our long term continuation of our craft, to presume otherwise or even accidently would be a marketing disaster. Secondly, I would put great effort in communication and education about the product. Explain how it could be marketed to the end consumer, it's advantages to the leather worker over traditional offerings. Is there any shortcomings of the product and what can be done to overcome them if any. Can it be used for some products and not for others? As a supplier, be proactive in managing the expectations of your customers and not wait for negative feedback to crush the product before it can gain a place in the market. Bad news travels ten times faster than good and unfortunately remains in memory ten times longer. Circumvent this by an honest evaluation and comparison to other products beforehand and make this readily available to consumers. It will prevent unfulfilled expectations, limit complaints and generally excel the perception of your dedication to your customer's satisfaction. Lastly, understand the economics of your customer base completely. This is probably the most volatile aspect to any marketing campaign as it changes depending on a myriad of circumstances. If a product is not vastly superior or economically obtainable without sacrificing expected qualities, it will have a slow or non-existent interest in the intended market. If a product does not give me the majority of qualities I require, no matter what it's cost, then I have no motivation to buy it. It may be another of hundreds of products out there that started out as good ideas or simply ahead of there time, but just do not have the market share to sustain sales or manufacture. Unless you have a deep belief and even deeper pockets to hold out until a product could gain a wider acceptance within your customer base, it may be advisable to discontinue that product and provide the products that your consumer base is actively seeking and allows a better cash flow for innovation later. In closing, I applaud your efforts to expand the offerings of our craft and your obvious dedication to it. Innovation and imagination is one of the reasons that made America, in particular, such a place of freedom and possibilities. Don't be discouraged and never stop trying to make a difference for the people or businesses you are involved in. Some efforts are never rewarded but those that are will be more gratifying. ps. I can personally see a market potential for the "tree hugging hippies" that make up half my clientele for my wildlife carvings. So if you ever need an honest, no holds barred review of your product for that purpose let me know and we can talk. Oh I can see it now... "yep poor Bessie spent a lifetime of happily producing milk as farm family pet until a lightning strike called her home to the Creator and now she is immortalized in your carving of the American Bald Eagle, that also with your purchase a percentage will be donated to such and such foundation. Yes, you have a wonderful piece of art and helped save the planet... doesn't that just give you a warm fuzzy feeling?" Cha-ching.

nice work

Ok ok maybe I need to back up here and better explain my reasoning for making this post. First of all, everyone needs to understand that this post was in no way was meant to be a reprimand, correction or be offensive to anyone. I have visited this site for many months and have the highest esteem for the craftsman and artists who use and contribute to this site, I personally feel that it represents a collection of the most experienced and talented leather artists in the world as well as the future of the leather arts. The mission of the site to further and expand the art of leather work is above and beyond what most sites could hope to endeavor, that I believe, is due primarily to it's participants. Not only does the group represent one of the leather medium's greatest resources but it also functions as the most effective ambassadors of a craft that predates most civilizations. Every contributor, whether a beginner or veteran, has the ability to expand the exposure, participation and understanding of a medium that continues to grow in demand and popularity over the centuries. In times past, the knowledge and techniques gathered here were a closely guarded secret and the only way to gain access was to be born into or buy acceptance of the guilds, this site and it's contributors have changed centuries of behavior that concealed a treasury of knowledge for all but a chosen few, for that I applaud all of you. Now with my true position being established, the reason I began this post came down to a chance encounter with a man a few weeks ago. I came across an ad on craigslist from a man looking for tooling leather. As I always have scraps left over from projects and curiosity about his ad, I responded. Turns out he had just had several back surgeries and was going to be confined for a few months as he recovered. He said that he was looking for a hobby he could do in his wheel chair and that his wife had bought him a set of leather tools at a garage sale but he had no idea how to use them or where to get the leather to try them out. After several emails and photos sent back back and forth, it turns out that he had an old "Lucky 7" set. I told him of their history as well as I knew it and that he had everything he needed to be be able to carve western floral designs minus a mallet, a marble slab and the leather. I gave him my list of suppliers and my recommended list of supplies, informing him of what I considered to be the most needed and entry level pricing and a promise to be be any help I could in his new found interest. As most of you already know, you get a special feeling from sharing your knowledge with others and some of the most endearing friendships we develop come from that act of sharing. So after a few days I had to make an order with HideCrafters and called Ron up and in the course of conversation, I asked him if a new customer I had referred had placed an order yet. No, he had not heard from him yet. Concerned that this man's recovery had a setback I called him up and asked him if he was ready to get started pounding hides, but something in his voice made me aware that there was some issue. I asked what was going on as he had been so excited a few days before to get started. "Travous" he said, "I really hate to admit this but because of my injury, being off work so long and all of the doctor's bills, I just don't have the money to spend on something just to keep me occupied while I get better". "When I am healed up and get back to work, we can start this but right now I just can't spend the money". It hit me like a ton of bricks, dozens of memories flooded my mind over how many times as struggling artist I longed for a better set of brushes, expensive paints, classes, hardware and software to get me to the next step, all the things that might help me to be a better artist and provide more for my family. I knew what it was like to have the desire to create but not the means and then I remembered all the gracious gifts and the many benefactors that enabled me to not only achieve my goals but taught me about the gift of sharing. "Jason, I have a solution. I have a lot of scrap, some duplicate tools, it happens when you don't keep an updated tool list, an extra mallet and some dye supplies and we are going get you started". I could hear the tremble in his voice as he asked why I would do this for him, for someone I barely knew? "Jason, it was done for me and I am just honoring those who did it for me by paying it forward". I could hear the smile over the phone as I grabbed an old Tandy box and filled it with all the stuff I thought he could use and got his address and told him that it would be there by FedEx tomorrow. I told him to call me when it arrived and said goodbye. I have to tell you that I felt inside like Christmas had come early for me. Jason lived about 60 miles from me and literally out in the boonies between Fayetteville and Ft. Smith, but I had one more thing to knock off my list for him to be able to start. I called a kitchen counter supplier in Fayetteville that I did some advertising for and asked him if he had any marble samples or scrap around 12x12 size. He said sure tons of it, how much do you want of it. I said I just need one piece and told him what I wanted it for. Well he said come get it and it's on the house, I tried to pay him for it but he would not hear of it. So next I called my brother in law, asked him if he was planning to hunt in the White Rock area any this week? Well it turns out he was going the next day and asked if would he do me a big favor. I asked him to come by my house before he left and pick up something to be delivered after his hunt was over and to just tell the guy it was from Travous and he will understand. Brett arrived at 3am and just was a little confused when I handed him a slab of polished black marble and told him where to deliver it and gave him a printed map of the directions. I told him to him to just drop it off and say "Merry Christmas from Travous" if Jason asked. Well everything went perfect, box came, slab delivered and we talked about everything until the batteries on the cell phone were about to die. As we were about to say goodbye I said I have one more thing....check out this website, it will cover everything about what we talked about and tons more because you will never remember all we have talked about. It was LeatherWorker.net I sent him to. After a few days and several emails, I noticed a change in the excitement of Jason... something subdued but tangible. He had been reading in this particular forum and said something he read had bothered him. He said that he knew he was so new to this and knew that he did not have all the really great tools and supplies that they talked about on the forums. He said he was so grateful for what he did have but got the impression that unless he eventually got the stuff everyone was talking about his work would never be as good as the work he was seeing in the galleries and it was kind of depressing. He said that he felt that all of his tools and supplies that he was so proud of, it seemed most on the forums looked down on as inferior and not capable of producing good work. That concerned me and I did not understand where he got the impression from. I explained to him that it is not the tools that you use, that make good work but the skill with which they were used. I told him that a skilled artist can produced incredible work with some nails and a stick, some old walnut husks and lots of practice and that the father of the American leather craft revival, Al Stohlman started out with not much more than that. I explained that each artist has their own style and opinions of what works best and it completely depends on the use of what they created. What works for one may not work for others for a variety of reasons like leather quality, availability and last but not least budget. The opinions and preferences of the contributors are more like guidelines not rules and most have very good reasons for the way they believe and as you gain experience you find much value in them. So after getting him back to feeling positive at his current place in his own personal development, I decided to see for myself what caused him so much doubt. What I wrote was my gut reaction to much of it I read myself and I myself should have been more tempered. It was early in the morning and should have waited to be more clear and for that I apologize. However, it makes me wonder if the contributors know just how much weight their opinions carry? Even if you are a complete beginner or seasoned veteran, you are still a part of the vanguards of this art form and many readers, whether they should are not, regard your words as the secrets of illumination of what was once just dark shadows to them. Even though, it may seem to you that it is just your own opinions and preferences, to many others it like gold and very important in their own value and development. Be aware that you may be influencing someone at an earlier stage of skill, knowledge and development than yourself and though it may seem tedious and time consuming try to explain why you feel your opinions and preferences are validated so that they will learn your hard earned experience. Who knows, you may actually teaching the next Al, Robb, George, Jim or Paul and they will remember you and your words and use it to create and pass on down to the next generation.

I just finished reading every topic on this forum and I keep seeing a trend... one product versus another and how much Eco Flow products are shunned. Each product has a purpose and a need. Focus on how your project is going to be used and work accordingly whether it is carving, coloring or finishing. You know guys, I think something is being missed here, one of the reasons we love leather is it is one of the few mediums that we artists can work with that was part of a living thing. That is part of the allure of leather, it ages, fades and changes with time and for me that is why I love it. When it leaves our hands it will start to change and for me...get better. Yes color will fade, spots and streaking will appear, it is not meant to be new looking forever and I personally love the "vintage look" and so do millions of people because they pay top dollar for that aged and distressed look. I personally have seen riders buy a brand new leather jacket and drag it around the parking lot because they would not want to be seen as noob rider, crazy but true. I have spent decades creating brands for products that most of you use everyday in your home and the bottom line is this.... manage your clients expectations and you will be successful. Leather is the one medium that gets better with age, develops more charm and history with every passing day. Celebrate that aspect with your clients. So yes, color will fade, leather will darken or lighten or become scuffed. If your clients do not want or cant live with that, tell them to buy plastic.