thenrie

I was hoping an experienced saddler might give me a good recommendation regarding the type and weight of leather that would be suitable for this restoration.

No, it's all original. It is apparently a commercial-made copy of the original 1857 design submitted to the govt for consideration for the military, which included the sweat flaps you see. Later models deleted the sweat flaps and added fenders on the stirrup straps. I think that's probably what you are referring to. We determined it is not an original 1857 "trial" saddle, as they were known to have been made with very thin leather, as well as some other details are different. In 1858 the military models added brass trim to try to help the problem of the thin leather splitting at the seams. In 1859 they went to a rawhide tree, rather than the black leather you see. A lot of the commercial makers didn't even know about the changes in the military saddle specs, and some made their own changes. Mine appears to have been made in the mid-to late 1860s, judging by some of the details on the saddle. I looked into that pretty thoroughly, as there is only one of those 1857s known to have survived in the world. It is in a museum in Sweden. I am quite certain this is a commercial model and was not made by a military contractor, although that does not rule out the possibility that it was used in the Civil War, since many soldiers, including officers bought their own saddles. There were literally thousands of commercial models made by private companies not affiliated with the military contracts for civilian use, so the historical or antique value is minimal, despite it's age and condition. I saw one that looked exactly like mine, but in better condition, go on ebay for $600 several months ago, from a seller in Oregon.

Thanks for the responses. Sorry I took so long to get back to the thread. By the way, I have known how to pack a packsaddle and tie a diamond hitch since I was in high school, many, many years ago. As it turns out, with the above-mentioned saddle, the horn is also loose, so I figure maybe this winter I'll just disassemble the saddle, fix everything and put it all back together and learn some things in the process. As for the Jones book, I wish he had included a few more photos of the finished saddle he documented the making of. I liked the design and thought it would make a good lightweight trail saddle.

You can find Hamley's at hamleyco.com. Give them a call and provide your saddle's serial number and they'll send you a certificate of authenticity that will tell for whom the saddle was made and when. Not only that, but if you want the saddle restored, they will do it. The certificate is a nominal fee, but restoration is quite expensive, of course. I am toying with the idea of having my Hamley restored by them. I still use it, but it's in dire need of restoration. I'm not up to the task with my skills yet.

I am getting ready to try a McClellan saddle restoration for my first saddlery project. It is an old one, by all indications made in the mid-late 1860s, but it was most likely a commercial-made saddle, and not a military saddle, so it is of little historical or antique value. I did some homework and research, as much as I could, to make sure, before I start messing with it. While it is not in all that bad of condition for it's age, I would like to restore it to usable condition...and use it. It's pretty simple, and all the leather is there to use as patterns, so it seemed like a good first project. Question I have is what weight I ought to use for the seat. Seems like 13-15 weight might be a little difficult to work with, particularly for the seat. Also, it was originally made with leather with a black varnished finish (all cracked and decayed now). Would I be better off buying black-dyed leather or just dying it myself...or leaving it with just an oiled finish? Figured I'd better ask somebody who knows, before I start ordering leather. Ahhh! Looks like I messed up with attaching the photos. Sorry.

I know this is an old thread, but it brings up an issue that comes up again and again. In my humble opinion, well, maybe not so humble, but anyway...a lot of problems that are labeled "saddle fit problem" are not the fault of the saddle at all. I constantly see folks with these pillow-like saddle pads and mile-wide cinches on their horses. Their thinking is that since they like large soft pillows and nice cushy seats, that a thick spongy saddle pad is what their horse will love. That's not the case at all. Get a good 3/4" mohair saddle pad with the indian-style blanket on the saddle side, and that's all the blanket you will need, no matter what kind of riding you do. In fact, if your saddle is in good condition, particularly the sheepskin, all you really need is a good 60" wool blanket, like a military surplus type, and fold it double. I see the wool indian-style blankets used quite a bit over less showy 1/2" mohair pads as well, and I think that's fine. The huge, fluffy, stuffed pads and all those specialized pads will make just about any saddle fit poorly. They are like fishing lures. Most catch more fishermen than they do fish. In other words, fishermen like to buy pretty, shiny stuff, and so do horsemen. A $300 saddle pad? For goodness sakes! Save your money and buy a nice saddle instead! Now for cinches. Same doctrine applies. I see folks with these huge, wide, neoprene cinches, and cinches with sheepskin covers, etc. The best cinches for any kind of western riding is a simple cotton or mohair string cinch. I read a rule of thumb not too long ago that I like: 17-strand cinch for full double rigging (that's the farthest forward position of a cinch on a western saddle), 19-strand for a 7/8 rigging, 21-23 for a 3/4. Nobody uses a center-fire anymore, so that's about it. Those huge wide cinches supposedly spread the load and make it more comfortable on a horse. Not so, generally. They cover a huge area and they do not breath. They tend to hold sweat and make the horse hot. Not only that, but they require the cinch to be tighter to keep the saddle in place. The only reason I can think of for using a neoprene cinch is that you could cut a hole in it to accommodate a cinch sore, or a lump or other injury in the cinch area. Another thing is that those wide cinches tend to make sores on the back of the horse's elbow, where the cinch rubs constantly as the horse walks. One consequence I see over and over again, from those who believe they are being kind to their horse with those thick pads and wide cinches, is that they almost always over-tighten the cinch. Well, you have to! There's no way a saddle will stay in place with those things if you don't. With a regular mohair or wool pad and a regular mohair string cinch, for most riding you can almost leave the cinch loose and the saddle will stay right where it should stay. Now, having said that, don't go doing barrels or roping with a loose cinch, but I can tell you that I have ridden many, many miles through the mountains with a cinch that was almost hanging loose under the horse's belly. With the right pad, you place the saddle on the horse, give it a couple good shakes, and the saddle will settle right where it should be. Snug up the cinch and there you are. The saddle will not move, if you know how to sit a saddle, for most riding most of us do on most days. Your horse will respond better to you when you saddle up as well. Just for information, for those who are wondering. I have been riding and handling horses for more than 40 years. Most of my riding is local trail riding, in preparation for the occasional long pack trip. My pack trips are through some pretty rugged places. I haven't done shows or games since I was a kid, but I used to be pretty good on a fast horse as well.

I have an old saddle needing new saddle strings. I was reading Dave Jones' book on saddlemaking. He uses D- rings screwed through a concho and the skirts to the bar and hangs his strings from the D-ring. Seems to me that would be an easy fix for my saddle, but then I use those strings. I tie on slickers, saddlebags, night rolls, and other stuff for long rides. Will screws hold? If so, I could also attach stuff with snap rings, straps and buckles, etc. Most saddles I've ever seen had the strings threaded through the bars. Some were under the sheepskin and some exposed. Jones also attaches his skirts to the bars with screws, rather than with saddle strings. Actually, the sheepskins also need to be replaced, so I can do it either way. Any thoughts on which is better and why?

With the price of good custom saddles nowadays, some passing $10,000, it may be the wise move to buy a horse to fit the saddle, rather than vice-versa, anyway!

What a great thread! Over five years and still getting new posts! It would be nice if the moderator could delete some of the "plant fiber vs animal fiber" posts and some of the little one-line flamers. At least a full page could be deleted and make this thread easier to get good info from. I have been riding and handling horses for over 40 years. I recently decided to start learning to make saddles and other tack, mostly for gifts. I started seeing articles about fitting horses and taking measurements, etc. and started worrying that I had been missing something. I have even read several times where saddle-makers have said that older saddles won't fit modern horses. Boy, did that take me down an notch! So what am I going to do with my 1947 Hamley? Dusty's article, that started this thread, brought me great relief. After reading through every post, and judging, as well, from my own experience, I have come to some conclusions: Different breeds of horses have different backs. That's why we have tree makers that make QH bars, Semi-QH bars, etc. Horses' backs change over the years. What fits one 3-year-old horse this year, probably won't fit so well when he's 20, but in all likelihood it won't make much difference to him under most conditions. Whether or not a $5,000 custom saddle fits my horse better than a $150 used Circle Y is less relevant than whether the saddle fits me better...$4,700 worth better. Saddles are status symbols, just like cars. You will see "$30-a-month" cowhands riding $5,000 custom saddles, but not because it makes them better cowhands than the one who rides the ranch stock saddle in the barn. If you can afford an expensive custom saddle, that's great! I have always wanted one, I can't afford one. My cheap saddles have worked fine. Just because you can't own a $5,000 saddle, doesn't necessarily make you a poor horseman. The fact that you don't own one may indicate you are frugal, rather than poor. Now don't get me wrong. I am a confirmed proponent of "the right tool for the right job", and normally the right tool is a bit more expensive than an off-the-shelf item, but it doesn't need to be gold-plated to get the job done. I don't feel inclined to pay for "artwork" in a working saddle. Some do. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, I wish I could afford it. Maybe one day I'll be good enough as a saddle-maker to make myself one. That's the only way I'll ever have one. Having said that, sometimes a gold-plated tool is necessary due to the work at hand, say, for a show saddle, or a trophy saddle. Nothing wrong with a cowboy or cowgirl blowing their life's savings on that once-in-a-lifetime saddle. Just remember, it will probably look like my 1947 Hamley in 50 years, and it will lay on the backs of dozens of horses in that time. My Hamley (custom made for my wife's uncle, which I inherited because nobody in her family wanted it) is the most comfortable saddle I have ever sat. It beats my $150 used Circle Y all to heck on my backside, but my horse doesn't seem to notice much difference. I enjoy long pack trips. I have ridden more than 100 miles on a single trip, in an old Simco student saddle. Both horse and rider did fine. I have put hundreds of miles on a number of saddles, whose manufacturers I couldn't even name. Never have I had a saddle sore on my horses (although I have been sore a time or two). I had a Quarter Horse that, in her old age, began to "blow-up" toward the end of a long day. I wondered whether it was because of many miles with an ill-fitting saddle, until I started learning about an ailment in some QHs that cause them to "bind-up" - muscle cramps. Not a saddle problem at all. Just too many miles in one day on an old horse. I have a lot of miles on myself now. I tend to get muscle cramps in my feet. Now I know why she blew up a few times. In my old age, I like riding my Hamley much better than my Circle Y. When I'm 90 I probably won't be able to lift my Hamley to my horse's back, but I might be able to lift the Circle Y. I find that most people tend to tighten their cinches too much. Mostly a problem with novices. It seems the ladies are the worst offenders. I guess some of them feel like they are weak, so they must pull harder on that latigo, not realizing how much leverage they get with two wraps through the rigging and cinch ring. Makes horses "cinchy". I have ridden many miles with the cinch hanging loose under the horse's belly. On a reliable horse, on level terrain, I'm ok with that. All you need is to keep the saddle in place. It should be just tight enough to keep the saddle where it should be for the activity you will be doing. Don't try roping with your cinch loose like mine! Again, not a saddle fit problem. If you weigh 300 pounds. Saddle fitting is not going to help much. Get a big horse and a big saddle. So, in fine, here is my current practice on saddle fitting: Right now I am working with two horses. One is a 20-year-old QH gelding getting some refresher training. One day I noticed that the saddle his owner (a novice horsewoman) threw on him - a very nice Texas-made western pleasure show saddle- came close to hitting his withers in the gullet. She cured that by putting two blankets on him. I suggest she try my Hamley and one blanket. I don't know, but I suspect it has what might be considered Semi-QH bars nowadays. Anyway, it fits him like a charm, and I don't worry about the saddle hitting his withers. I am also working with a "green-broke" (that can mean just about anything here in Virginia) 7 year-old QH-type grade mare. Nice conformation. Looks QH, except for her very flat back. My Hamley seems to look like it pinches her a little at the withers. Sits a bit high. My $150 used Circle Y fits her nicely, looks right, doesn't move around. I think sometimes we tend to take everything to the "Nth degree", particularly when it is something we call our craft. We tend to try for perfection. In reality, most of those tiny details have no effect on the use of the item we have created, but they show our love for our craft, our pride in our work. People tend to gravitate to that kind of work, and pay good money for it. Some folks take that even further and begin to "sell" their nth degree as a necessity to those who know no better. I think some of this saddle-fitting stuff falls into that category. Mainly, though, I agree with most of what Dusty said. Except for some specific problems with specific horses, wide saddles for wide horses, narrow ones for narrow horses. Outside of that, roping trees for ropers, big seats for big riders, long stirrup leathers for tall folks, etc. The custom saddle is mostly for the rider, not the horse.

I think the pictures distort the size relationships relative to the horn. The horn, as it was originally made, looks right for the saddle and is not as large as the pictures make it look. In the same vein, the brass horn is not as large as it looks either. Trimming everything to the size of the brass horn would make a pretty dinky horn cap, in my opinion, but I'll take another look at that possibility. I think I'm going to let it sit a while, and consider taking it apart and re-wrapping it. I need to learn how to do that anyhow. Time is my biggest problem right now. When I removed the stitches to take a look, I figured it would be a simple matter of reattaching the cap and stitching it back up. I am a big proponent of doing things the right way the first time, so I'll just wait until I have the time to do it right. Thanks for all the input.

CWR: I really don't want to disassemble the saddle to re-wrap the horn when the horn and leather is tight. This appears to be a pretty simple fix. My problem is just that the bottom cover leather is a little stretched, so I need to add some sort of filler to fill it out and make it tight once it is re-stitched. Bob: The way you described is exactly how the horn was originally done, as you can see in the pics, except for the tacks. Had they used tacks I might not be doing this. However, the problem I now have is the stretched bottom cover. Should I add a leather filler under the horn or would wood be better. I could make a wood filler and glue and screw them together over the brass horn for shape, then put the top filler and stitch it all back as original, or I could use a leather filler on the bottom and try to tack and clinch it to the top one and stitch that all up, but I was afraid it would make the seam too bulky and look bad. What do you think?

Hey folks. I have an older youth saddle that is in excellent shape except the leather of the horn cap was loose (horn itself is solid). Thought I'd open it up and see what the problem was. The saddle was stored for many years in a 55-gal drum, on it's nose, surrounded by saddle pads and other tack. I expect the drum was handled roughly by a mover or two over the years and stretched the leather of the horn from constant pressure. After removing the stitching, I found the horn is a brass casting with a round wood cap screwed on top. The wood cap is tapered at the edges to give the horn cap its domed shape. This, in turn, was covered by a leather cap glued in place over the wood piece, to give the horn proper thickness, and stitched around the edges between the top and bottom pieces of the horn cover. Apparently a jolt caused the leather piece to separate from the wood cap, breaking the wood piece and allowing the horn cover to push back. Over time the underside of the horn cover stretched from the constant weight of the saddle sitting on the broken horn cap. Now here's the question. I have made a new wood cap to replace the broken one. I can screw it into place as the original was. I can also re-use the original leather piece that went on top of it. I intend to glue it back into place with contact cement, as it was done originally, and will probably stick a couple screws in it from the top as well. The question is on the bottom side, where the leather has stretched. I want to add a piece on the bottom to fill out the stretched leather of the cover and just give the horn a bit of a thicker look than original, and restitch the horn. The piece would be skived thin around the edges and not stitched into the seam, to retain the original seam thickness. What would be the best way to add that bottom filler piece? I have thought of using contact cement, but I was worried that it wouldn't hold to the brass horn well. I thought of J.B. Weld or some other epoxy-type cement, which I could simply carve to the shape I wanted and not use leather, or simply make another wooden filler piece to match the one on top and glue them in a sandwich over the brass horn with wood glue. No experience = lots of ideas and no way to judge the value of them. Some advice would be appreciated. I'll try to post pictures later.

I like that one as well.

Oldtimer, I really like your "mountain trailride" saddle. Most of my riding is packing in the mountains. That saddle looks comfortable, sturdy, and lightweight. I think I'll look at making myself something along those lines. What kind of tree did you use on that, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks, and beautiful work.

Apparently the shipping has been increased to $15. The price + shipping must be sent as a money order or check by mail to his address in France. He doesn't accept credit cards. Has anybody dealt with him before? Maybe he's a member on this forum? I'm a little cautious about sending $60 overseas to somebody about whom I know nothing. I wish he would market it through Amazon, which would at least offer a little security. I read one review of the book, but about all it gave was a short history about the author's life experience and said it has a lot of pictures (I like books with lots of pichers). Not much meat in the review. Anybody actually thumbed through the book and have an opinion? If it is a worthwhile book that gives actual usable information for saddle restoration, rather than just historical stuff about old saddles, I'll buy. Alain, if you are a member here, I don't mean to be offensive or question your integrity, but I'm new here and I hate sending money through the mail. Tony

What did you find out? I have an old Hamley I inherited from my wife's family. I use it as my primary saddle. Love the thing. I plan to have mine restored by Hamley eventually, but I doubt I'll ever stop riding it. If I'm not missing my guess, your stirrup leathers and fenders are not original. The Hamley saddles of that vintage I have seen all have the stirrup leathers over the fenders, however I'm no expert. Otherwise the saddle looks to be in good shape. Seems like most of the Hamleys I have seen seem to have the skirts curled under. Mine is the same. Maybe could use to have the fleece replaced. I saw a similar Hamley saddle on ebay recently that didn't sell at $800. Times are tough. I recently bought an older Big Horn saddle for $150. Just depends on the day and who's looking, I guess. You might take a look at Hamley's website (google it). They have some used saddles listed with prices and might give you an idea about yours. Tony

I got some very good information on the Society of the Military Horse forum that indicates this is probably a saddle made by a commercial saddlery, likely in the late 1860s-1870s era. To those who responded, thanks for the help. Armed with that information, I plan to eventually restore the saddle to useable condition, which probably means disassembling it and using the leather for patterns. Always wanted one of these. I'll be lurking around for a while, soaking up good information as I prepare to learn the art of saddle-making. I have several months left before I can actually put in the time to do it.

That is the site I got my initial information from. Another site is: http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/04_horse_equip/04_item_049.htm

I'm not an expert by any means, so lets get that out of the way first. I do have an affinity for Hope, Mexican, and McClellan saddles though. By checking my books and doing a little research, it seems that your saddle could be an 1857 "trial" that was later brought up to the 1859 specs. The reason I say this is because of the nail or screw holes where all of the stress areas and brass plates would go. This lends me to believe that they had the brass plates on there at one time. This would have been used until they totally phased out the trees not covered in rawhide. I'm sure that being during a war era, the brass plates might have been reclaimed to be used on a newer saddle, in order to save money. The tree not being rawhide covered is a huge giveaway. But, I can not be certain as I am not a historian. I would certainly contact the Company of Military Historians to get a better idea of what you may have. I would not touch the saddle(meaning clean or condition it) until you make contact with them. Frank The saddle definitely had the brass plates and you can see the one remaining in place on the front of the pommel. My reading indicates the "trial" saddles had brass fittings. My understanding is that the "trial" saddles were modified to have a bare rawhide covered saddle seat for the 1859 model. Otherwise they are very similar. Later 1857s and 1859s were also modified with brass trim on the pommel and cantle, where the leather tends to split near the seams. This saddle has no indication of that being done.

Hi folks. First timer. I have been wanting to learn the craft of saddle-making and have been lurking for a while. While visiting my father's place, I came across a McClellan saddle he has had for some time. The story behind it is that a friend of our family gave the saddle to my dad. Their family owned a 1700s plantation in Virginia and had a couple McClellans in their barn. Dad asked about them and was told this particular one was purchased from a surplus sale shortly after the Civil War by one of her ancestors. Dad offered to buy it from her, but she just said, "Here, it's yours." Dad has intended to eventually repair it, but has never gotten around to it. When I started looking up information on it, it appears to me that it is a 1857 McClellan trial saddle. However, it also appears those are extremely rare and that there are no known surviving examples, except one in a museum in northern Europe. So, while I got temporarily excited, reason tells me we couldn't possibly be so lucky. I'm hoping some of you can take a look and help me out with some reliable information before I either try myself to restore it, or send it off to a shop. If there is any chance this is a rare saddle, I don't want to ruin a valuable piece of history. By way of description, it appears to have a wooden tree with no rawhide covering. The tree is covered by polished black leather, stitched along the crest of the pommel and cantle. There is no evidence of these seams having been covered with brass trim, as seen on many of the later saddles (no tack holes are evident). The brass trim pieces, except one in the front of the pommel, are missing. The rigging rings appear to be steel, but I haven't tested them or tried to clean them. The stirrups are steel, no tapaderos. The bars are also covered with thin leather. The fittings on the rear jockey are brass. There is a steel eye screw attached to the back of the cantle, which appears to be for a crupper. I initially thought this was a modification, but it appears the leather was designed to accommodate the eye screw, so it may be original. The sweat fenders are attached to the tree with wood screws, as are the rear and front jockeys. Overall, the leather is actually in pretty good shape, except a rigging strap that is broken. Once I find out a little more, I'll clean and condition the leather. If it turns out to be a valuable piece, I'm not going to touch it until I have it looked at by a real pro.