Thanks Chief, I had a 50% chance of getting the right book first time, guess I picked the wrong one, another $5.00 into my leather working tools and books. I will have to start selling some of my stuff to justify buying more. I sure like the look of the triple loop, hope the quadruple looks as good. I'm also going to watch some of your videos tonight, good stuff and much appreciated. Off to download another book, will let you know how it works, thanks again, Garry.