rktaylor

Oltoot is correct about the cross sectional area, shape and orientation affecting the strength of a member. I won't bore you with the terminology. Think about 2x4 and 2x6 boards laying flat. There is a difference in strength but not that much. Turn the two on edge and the difference becomes greater. Notch one of these boards when it's laying flay and then see what it can support. I think that's what he is talking about when he mentions scoring the rawhide at the stirrup slots. Randy

Bob, I think Denise answered the question better than I can. My statement that it will flex is because everything flexes. I remember as a young engineering student the first time I learned (not sure I believed it at first) that steel flexes. We build stuff out of drill stem in Oklahoma, because we can't get anything heavier. I would offer a couple of examples of flexible items that we see all the time in pre-stressed aluminum semi trailers and prestressed concrete beams. Ever see one of the trailers empty and then loaded. Now, I have only built one saddle. I don't build trees. And if I ever find myself attached to bull some very poor decisions have been made to get me to that point. So I am far from an expert on the matter, but I do have an opinion and an internet connection. Since you started this thread, I have tried to visualize what happens within the saddle while it is on the horse. I agree with Denise in that I can't see any value in the tree flexing (at least easily). Maybe when we talk about flex, we are talking about absorbing the shock when something large hits the end of your rope. Its better to give a little than be completely rigid. At least I think it is. I think this leads us back to some of the initial points made on fatigue. Fatigue of any material is related to stress cycles. Typically, I would like to base my conclusions on some scientific data, but I don't know if I can find any on rawhide. My gut feeling is that rawhide would handle more stress cycles than fiberglass. Thus having a longer 'service life.' That's just my opinion, but two weeks ago when Sonny gave me the choice between rawhide and fiberglass, I chose rawhide. As far as computer models or even measuring what happens dynamically on a horse, you bet it can be done. I have a colleague who raises bucking bulls and we discussed methods for measuring the tension in a bull rope and the pressure points it puts on the bull while bucking. We didn't do it, but I thought we had a pretty good plan. In the end it just seemed like an academic exercise that would not lead to useful knowledge. This leads me to me one of the statements in my first post. Is it a question worth answering? Even though the wood in each individual tree is unique and then the covering adds another level of uniqueness, we could determine whether the coverings make them different. Now the question becomes, How many trees would we need to determine this? Having spent a lot of my career doing research on things that are hard to control, I would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 with each covering. That's assuming we could all agree on a standard methodology that is repeatable. My experience is that getting this agreement takes significantly longer than the tests. As fun as it might be for me, I don't think I could generate any new knowledge that would improve saddle tree construction. So it leaves us with anecdotal discussion and the collection of extreme observations. Which, in the end is more fun than an academic discussion. Trust me, I have had a lot of both. Cheers, Randy

Bob, I am not sure I understand your question and don't want to write a three paragraph response and miss the target. Are you asking: How did I arrive at the comments in my post like: "a tree would flex regardless of the covering"? or What methodology would I use to measure the flex in a tree? Randy

CW, It will have to be hand stitched, because I don't own a machine. That is exactly what I was thinking about doing, but was concerned I might damage the thread in the overstitched holes. My smallest needle is a double 0 and the holes are pretty small, The needle goes through fine, but I am not sure with extra thread in the hole. One way to find out. Thanks for the advice, Randy

As an engineer, I find this discussion extremely interesting. I would bet a large steak dinner that the tree will flex regardless of the covering. The real question is how much and is it enough (assuming it needs to flex). As Ron pointed out, fatigue failure is a function of cycles. If it goes through too many stress cycles, you could see your swells bouncing through the pasture attached to a smaller bull. I have spent most of my career conducting research and testing equipment or components. I guarantee we could answer the question of how much a tree flexes, but I wonder if it is one that is worth answering. I would like to tour a tree manufacturer though. I think that would be very interesting. Randy

Joel The holes are still intact. The stitches just broke loose. Randy

Ron, Thanks for the update. I was getting curious about your progress. I can't offer tips on sewing a Cheyenne roll, but am interested in hearing any. Looking forward to seeing the final product. Randy

A friend asked me to repair this stitching. Sorry for the image focus (or lack of). At first, I was thinking about stitching over it. But I am concerned I might damage more stitches. Then I thought about just pulling this thread back through the holes and tying it on the back side. Or maybe someone knows the correct way to fix it. This is on the seat jockey and is only cosmetic. Thanks, Randy

Really nice. I need to build a new one and like your design. What's the clearance on your jaws? It looks like enough to sew saddle skirts.

Ron, You are correct. The pulling collar does not lay flat on the chest. I will modify my pattern with more taper. Randy

I am far from an expert and further from an artist, but I am also attempting some floral design. I have Bob Park's book and compared your design to some of those he displays. The first thing I see is some large blank areas between the flowers. Maybe the flowers are too far apart. Bob talks about spacing and balance between elements. I also think you need more 'non flower' elements. Maybe some stumps. The two smaller flowers seem disconnected. That's a lot of information from someone with no experience, so take it for what it's worth. I don't get a commission, but Bob's book was a value buy for me. Randy

WyomingSlick, I picked the Tech-Tips book today. Thanks for the tip. I believe it will be well worth the money spent. I noticed that my backgrounding looks a lot like the "Wrong." I am going to practice this weekend. Randy

Bob, Thanks for the insight. Attention to detail. I was afraid someone would say that. I always look for the complex solutions first, but I suppose if you do all the little things right the rest takes care of itself. I have looked at Keith's saddles and also Troy West's. They are certainly worth striving to replicate. I noticed most of your points were on the rear of the saddle. I did not get the jockeys tight enough on my first saddle, so I need to improve. I really like the way Jeremiah Watt spikes the rear jockeys to get them tight. Actually his entire approach of using a center line on everthing made sense to me. I think my ear cuts were ok, but this is a really visible area so I need to pay attention. I figured somone would point out edge finishing as it really does make a difference in appearance. I am still practicing that on some other projects. Since it will all be hand sewn, I am still trying to build those skills. Again, thanks for the repsonse. Randy

Saddle Experts: I guess I am doing this a little backwards, but I am trying to improve my saddle building skills after I already built one. But, as I plan for the second, I am trying to be more systematic. I would like to end up with a saddle that no one would ever guess it was only the second one I ever built. Thus, my questions are: What are the first things you look at when critiquing a saddle to assess quality, first class construction? What do you feel are the most common mistakes made or overlooked by novice saddle makers? I want to make sure that I don't get to some point in saddle construction (that the experts feel is critical) just to think 'that's good enough.' I have books and DVDs to help me in the process and plan to build on my library, but I want to know what your eye is drawn to when you first look at a saddle. Thanks in advance for the tips. Randy

Ron and Bob, Thanks for the compliments and encouragement. I used another breast collar to make a pattern for the OSU collar. I did change the cinch tie down piece on this collar. I have been making them shaped more like the pulling collar, but thought I would experiment with something different. I will take your suggestion and try a little more taper. I made the pattern for the pulling collar by checking it on one of our mares. She may not have been the best choice (kind of thin in the neck area). If I understand correctly, you think it curves too much where it connects to the center dee. I plan to connect it through the handhole, but have not ridden with it. I will wait until it sees some use before I make another like it. I am looking forward to seeing my next saddle too. Randy

I just finished a couple of breast collars. I use these to practice sewing, stamping, etc. in preparation for building another saddle. The one is my first attempt at a pulling collar. I was made to match my first saddle. The top piece is saddle skirting and the back is latigo. All stainless steel hardware. The other was made for a friend of mine who wanted me to 'put my OSU stamp' on his breast collar. I informed him that it wasn't a stamp. I used his as a pattern and used the basket weave to match his saddle. This baby is heavy (double thick saddle skirting). I am considering getting "Crafter's License" from OSU and selling these. Comments are welcome. Randy

Wyoming Slick and others: Thanks for all the tips. I will use your instructions on my next project. I have a 104 tool and a couple other backgrounders. I need to practice beveling too, but that's for another day. I will try to pick up the Stohlman book next time I am in the City. Randy

Thanks for the tips. I think it was too wet. I understand 'bash' so that's what I'll do. Maybe I can even it out some.

This might not be the best place for this question, but I need some advice on using backgrounding tools. While this work is surrounding a letter, I need to improve for some floral carving as well. Thanks for any advice. Randy

Thanks for the lead. I will check them out.

Ron, Can you elaborate on the cantle not being square? Where did you measure from and where did you place the leather to compensate? It's this a common problem? Thanks, Randy

My guess is that the thread on the backside is going through the loop. This will make it run straight instead of the slight angle of the saddle stitch. I have to pay attention or it happens to me.

I saw a YouTube video with Bruce Cheaney where he was using Trencilo 1mm polyester braided thread. I searched for it to no avail. Does anyone know where to order it or something similar? Thanks, Randy

The correct site is www.musicmedic.com. I just checked and the maximum diameter is 0.1 inch. We'll see how it works. Randy

I think I found the one you used. I ordered one from musicwire.com. Randy