rktaylor

Ron, Could you share some details on the antiquing method you use. I know there are some other tutorials, but I am just curious about your method. I really like the way it looks, so it's ripe for emulating. Thanks, Randy

Well, Jeremiah Watt says, "If you've done it right, it will just roll over." I guess I didn't do it right. This is the second one I have glued on and the third one I have cut out. I have part of it like I want, but not all of it. The glue is breaking loose but maybe it's not as bad as I think. It is also not as flush with the cantle as I would like. Maybe I should hammer it more. I have more leather and am not opposed to cutting another one. Sorry about the rotated photo. Thanks for any advice. Randy

Oltoot, I don't believe I followed your instructions real close, but I skived my arms off, had the little lady sit on it, and skived some more. I think I have a pretty good ground seat now. I am drawing my stamping design, then need to practice some. After that I will put the cantle back on and then on to the fork cover. Thanks for the input. Randy

Ron, Let's deal with the last question first. The stirrup leathers are 2 1/2 inches. I thought the same thing about the front riser. My primary references are Harry Adams' book and Jeremiah Watt's DVD. Both of these are based on a Wade tree. This looks more like how JW does it. However after three attempts at a metal seat strainer over the weekend, I may do an all leather seat. I think you are right about my rigging placement. I don't have my hardware yet, so I was just planning. I figure poster board is cheaper than leather. Oltoot, I was confused, then thought I understood, but alas realized I was still confused. My thoughts behind the one piece top it that I can get it to fit right and do all my tooling on it. I can cut the bottom piece larger, then block it. I can cut it to match the top after they are glued. This seems pretty easy to me, but that could be because I don't know what I am getting into. I was going to make the top piece out of 13-15 oz and the skirt out of 10-11 oz. So I thought this way would be fairly strong. Maybe a lot stronger than it needs to be. CW, I think I will end up a bit smaller that these. I just wanted to make sure I had enough leather around the bars to block. Once, I get my rigging plates this week, I can really see where I want to place them. I haven't given up on a light weight, but I have tempered my expectations some. The bottom line is I don't think I can leave enough leather out to keep it light and still end up with the saddle I want to build. I know Stohlman's V3 has the in-skirt rigging, but I only have the first two volumes. I still have a lot of questions, but I will try to ration them a little to ease the load on everyone here and maybe increase the uptake by me. Thanks for all the input and advice. Even if I don't take it, it's still valuable. Randy

I have started working on a barrel saddle. Based on feedback regarding building a lighter saddle, I decided to go with a skirt rigging. Any comments on the pattern? I put some dimensions on the pattern. These may appear skewed since the poster board is not pulled up tight to the tree all the way around. What about the dimensions? Is there too much or not enough clearance from the tree? I am planning on a 3/4 rigging. I have a #13 ring rigging ordered from Sheridan. The pink line would be the intended edge of the top skirt for the rigging cover. I am working off the style that Bob Brenner posted in another thread. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing it again here so you don't have to look for it. My plan is to cut the bottom skirt oversized and then match it to the top after it is blocked. Thanks in advance, Randy

Thanks for all the input. Truth be told, my wife would probably prefer new kitchen chairs over a saddle. But I am not making chairs. Like most of them, she tolerates a lot and smiles through most of it. I was leaning toward an in-skirt rigging, so you have convinced me to go that way. I will post some skirt/rigging patterns when I start working on it to make sure I understand what you are saying related to riggings. I like the idea of leaving a space on the skirt between the front and rear rigging. I bet, based on projected usage it will last longer than 25 years. I get what you are saying on the Bowden tree. My first saddle was on a Batie tree, so I am looking for comparisons. I also have a Quality tree ordered for a saddle I am building for me (you see where my priorities are). I had a friend who was going to order Timberline, so I would have a good sample to look at. He hasn't got off high center yet so I won't get to touch one of those for awhile. I wanted the barrel tree, because I live in a college town with lots of cowgirls. I figure if I ever want to sell saddles, I need to tap into their dad's money. haha I was thinking about buying a side of 10-11 ounce HO, but am going to wait until I know what else I need to save on shipping. Since Oltoot told me to order 3 sides of heavy skirting for my saddle, I have some left that could be used for some of this saddle. I think 2 1/2 inch stirrup leathers and was considering half leathers. I don't know about going down to 2 inches. It's hard to build something light when you have a tendency to overbuild everything. There will be a lot of tooling practice for this saddle because I have a floral pattern in mind. Maybe I should start this weekend. Thanks again. Randy

I am planning to make a saddle for my wife. It will just be used for trail riding. I have a BWBR tree ordered from Bowden. The two primary constraints are: 1. It must be comfortable (I'll take my chances here). 2. It must be light. Her current saddle weighs just over 22 lbs. That's because there's not much to it. My goal is to stay around 25 lbs if possible. Questions: What is the lightest leather that you would recommend? I have some HO 13-15 oz that could be used for some pieces (ground seat, swell cover, ??), but thought I should have something lighter for the fenders, stirrup leathers, seat, etc. I was planning on a 3/4 in-skirt rigging, but could do a single O-rigging. Any thoughts on which is the best option to keep weight down? Which option would be easiest for a novice saddle maker like me? Thanks for any advice. Randy

Ron, That's really cool. You give us newbies something to shoot for. The only question I have is: Why a year and a half? Thanks for sharing. Randy

Do you want to do this as a hobby or a profession? I looked at a lot of saddle schools before I built my first saddle, but the bottom line is I did not have the time to attend one. I have a full time job already and was not looking for a new profession. If you are considering it as a hobby, I can offer my experience. However, I am a long ways from being a saddle maker and further from being a brain surgeon. Randy

Ron, You know I do not have the trained eye that others do, but the 'flow' looks great (rear jockeys onto the skirts and the seat jockey). It all 'fits' together. I can see the issue you point out with the rear rigging but it certainly doesn't look bad. I see CW's point on the screw also. If either of those are your worst mistake, pat yourself on the back. I really like the tooling on the rear jockey. The way that you blended the border and basket weave with the floral design. Very nice indeed. Take some time to ride it before you start your second. Randy

I would like to echo Bob's comment. Ron L. was not the only one learning from the posts. Thanks to all who are willing to share. Randy

Ron, It's looking good. I can't wait to see the gallery photos when you're done. Hand sewing the skirts (and everything else) is time consuming. However, I think am getting better and faster with all of the sewing that I do. Nonetheless, if I ever sell a saddle, I am buying a machine. Randy

Thanks for all the feedback. Billy, you are correct, that I thought these were really smooth. However when they dried, they were not so smooth. I stopped rubbing initially because I though they were starting to get rough and I was concerned with over-burnishing them. Either that or I was getting tired of rubbing. I'll give them a little more TLC like Bob says. These are my fenders, so I will get a lot more chances to burnish them before they are installed. Randy

I have started my second saddle and want to do a really good job on the edges. I have been following Bob Park's guide for the most part. I sanded the edges and edged with a #4 western edger. Then I wet the edges, applied Fiebings glycerin bar soap (liberally) and rubbed it with a piece of canvas coated with saddle soap. The edges seem pretty good, but I could probably burnish them some more. You can see in the two photos (the leather is damp in the first photo) that I am getting some soap on the surface and not just the edges. Is this a problem? Am I being too sloppy? I am not planning to dye the edges, but I think the surface needs to be cleaned before I oil it. Any advice is appreciated. Randy

Big Sioux, I think I will pass on those swells. That is well outside my amateur status. Keith, I am leaning against lacing now, but I wanted to get clarification on your advice. Are you saying that the lacing should not get too far above the purple line in this photo? What about if I laced it down the green line. I think I should be able to stretch it around the top corner and lace the slack below it. I was planning to lace them with latigo to match my saddle strings. I seem to get this 'good' ideas that someone else has already found that they are not that good. I am going to practice sewing some welts this weekend. Thanks for all the advice. Randy

I am going to be faced with this issue in the near future. I will be building on a Will James tree with 13.5 inch swells. Maybe I could cover them without welts, but I figured it was something I should learn anyway. I am planning to lace them, but this last post has me somewhat concerned. I sure see a lot of saddles with laces down the side of the swells, but I know that doesn't mean its a good idea. I figure after six years some of the opinions may have changed or maybe someone new wants to chime in. Thanks, Randy

Oltoot, Thanks for the detailed comments. I thought the primary purpose of plugs was to make a smooth transition where the skirts were blocked. JW talks about keeping tension on the plugs to prevent the skirts from curling. I was going to order three sides to start my second saddle and talked myself into two. I haven't ordered them yet, but now I am second guessing myself again. That's becoming a habit. Ron, That's good advice from Bob, but I am anxious to see your saddle. Randy

I have a friend looking at some used Johnny Scott ranch roping saddles. I can't find anything on the internet about them. Can anyone provide some information? Thanks, Randy

Looks nice. Can you post some close ups of the cantel and horn? How long did it take to braid that? Randy

Oltoot is correct about the cross sectional area, shape and orientation affecting the strength of a member. I won't bore you with the terminology. Think about 2x4 and 2x6 boards laying flat. There is a difference in strength but not that much. Turn the two on edge and the difference becomes greater. Notch one of these boards when it's laying flay and then see what it can support. I think that's what he is talking about when he mentions scoring the rawhide at the stirrup slots. Randy

Bob, I think Denise answered the question better than I can. My statement that it will flex is because everything flexes. I remember as a young engineering student the first time I learned (not sure I believed it at first) that steel flexes. We build stuff out of drill stem in Oklahoma, because we can't get anything heavier. I would offer a couple of examples of flexible items that we see all the time in pre-stressed aluminum semi trailers and prestressed concrete beams. Ever see one of the trailers empty and then loaded. Now, I have only built one saddle. I don't build trees. And if I ever find myself attached to bull some very poor decisions have been made to get me to that point. So I am far from an expert on the matter, but I do have an opinion and an internet connection. Since you started this thread, I have tried to visualize what happens within the saddle while it is on the horse. I agree with Denise in that I can't see any value in the tree flexing (at least easily). Maybe when we talk about flex, we are talking about absorbing the shock when something large hits the end of your rope. Its better to give a little than be completely rigid. At least I think it is. I think this leads us back to some of the initial points made on fatigue. Fatigue of any material is related to stress cycles. Typically, I would like to base my conclusions on some scientific data, but I don't know if I can find any on rawhide. My gut feeling is that rawhide would handle more stress cycles than fiberglass. Thus having a longer 'service life.' That's just my opinion, but two weeks ago when Sonny gave me the choice between rawhide and fiberglass, I chose rawhide. As far as computer models or even measuring what happens dynamically on a horse, you bet it can be done. I have a colleague who raises bucking bulls and we discussed methods for measuring the tension in a bull rope and the pressure points it puts on the bull while bucking. We didn't do it, but I thought we had a pretty good plan. In the end it just seemed like an academic exercise that would not lead to useful knowledge. This leads me to me one of the statements in my first post. Is it a question worth answering? Even though the wood in each individual tree is unique and then the covering adds another level of uniqueness, we could determine whether the coverings make them different. Now the question becomes, How many trees would we need to determine this? Having spent a lot of my career doing research on things that are hard to control, I would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 with each covering. That's assuming we could all agree on a standard methodology that is repeatable. My experience is that getting this agreement takes significantly longer than the tests. As fun as it might be for me, I don't think I could generate any new knowledge that would improve saddle tree construction. So it leaves us with anecdotal discussion and the collection of extreme observations. Which, in the end is more fun than an academic discussion. Trust me, I have had a lot of both. Cheers, Randy

Bob, I am not sure I understand your question and don't want to write a three paragraph response and miss the target. Are you asking: How did I arrive at the comments in my post like: "a tree would flex regardless of the covering"? or What methodology would I use to measure the flex in a tree? Randy

CW, It will have to be hand stitched, because I don't own a machine. That is exactly what I was thinking about doing, but was concerned I might damage the thread in the overstitched holes. My smallest needle is a double 0 and the holes are pretty small, The needle goes through fine, but I am not sure with extra thread in the hole. One way to find out. Thanks for the advice, Randy

As an engineer, I find this discussion extremely interesting. I would bet a large steak dinner that the tree will flex regardless of the covering. The real question is how much and is it enough (assuming it needs to flex). As Ron pointed out, fatigue failure is a function of cycles. If it goes through too many stress cycles, you could see your swells bouncing through the pasture attached to a smaller bull. I have spent most of my career conducting research and testing equipment or components. I guarantee we could answer the question of how much a tree flexes, but I wonder if it is one that is worth answering. I would like to tour a tree manufacturer though. I think that would be very interesting. Randy

Joel The holes are still intact. The stitches just broke loose. Randy