RyanCope

Keith, I'm pretty sure that is the case. The bridging on the new stand had me wondering. Three of them were by the same maker. Ryan Cope

When I measured the tree behind the back stirrup slot it was roughly 3/8" closer to the marble block that it was sitting on than all of the other trees with identical measurements (5 other trees). If there is a better way to measure rock, I haven't figured it out yet. The tree was built by Quality Mfg. Semi-Quarter Horse North West bars. It was soring running type quarter horses behind the stirrup slots. They happily took it back and sent me a new tree, so there was probably a few other saddlemakers with the same problem. It just struck me as an odd coincidence, and I thought maybe someone else had had a similar experience. Like you say, it seems like it would be a hard thing to do with a draw down strap. Ryan Cope

This may be an ignorant question, but would it be possible to permanently alter the rock in a set of bars using the draw down strap to help stretch in a ground seat? I've got two sets of draw down horses which I've built roughly 100 saddles on with out a problem. On both of these the tree sits on two 2"x6" butted together @ roughly a 120 degree angle. So the tree will rock on that flat surface behind the back stirrup slot a few inches. Which is were I place my draw down strap to help take slack out of the ground seat. I usually leave this stap on for a day or so. Reason being that my top ground seat piece is stretched in while the glue/ leather is wet, and the top piece wont stay in place until the glue has dried. I recently bought a draw down horse from Ron's Tool Company in Montana, which is shaped more like a horses back. The saddle bars will even bridge slightly on most of the trees I use where the draw down strap is placed. Which is the opposite of my other two. And, because of the way its built, you can really crank down on that strap. I recently had a saddle sent back and it turns out the bars had too much rock. This was the first saddle I built on this new stand. So is it a coincidence? Probably. But might help someone from going thru what I just did. Granted, I may be the only one here that puts in a ground seat this way. Ryan Cope

Steve, If your base price is $400, I wouldn't charge any less than $550. I don't know what your labor rate is, let's say it is $40/ hour (That's what I charge). 3 1/2 additional hours @ $40 is $140, plus materials. Nice job. Those are clean. Ryan Cope

I was planning on it, but ended up spending the day with Dennis and David a couple weeks ago at Bruce Johnson's place. Their card system seems like a very simple, usable way to measure a horses back. I would definately recomend it. Ryan Cope

I learned about the shovel cantle from cowboys and not saddlemakers, so my definition may not be historically accurate. Having said that, I would say that in my region a shovel cantle would be defined by it's shape. The widest point being at the base. A semi-shovel having its slightly wider point just above the base, and a round cantle being much wider 1/3 of the way up the cantle. I believe a "Taylor cantle" refers to the lack of dish (1" or less), which allows for different bar cuts where the cantle is attached ( or vice verse). My version is narrow, not wide( 9 1/2" to 11 1/2"), and has little to no dish. They often have a bevel along to top. Shovel cantles make it easier to shift body position in the saddle, even at a trot. It also lightens up the saddle a bit, depending on how narrow it is. Which is why they are so popular with a lot of guys in the Great Basin and surrounding areas. Maybe it is a phenomenon, fad, or just a contemporary version, but I would say it is the perceived definition of a shovel cantle where I come from. I have seen quite a few Visalias that fit this description. Ryan Cope

Naked butt molds? Come on. It's not April fools day. Sounds more like a pre-cursor to an expensive divorce and/ or a mid-life crisis. Was it more difficult to get the men to strip naked and sit on a horse in a garbage bag, or the women? Ryan Cope

This is the way I was taught. It doesn't always work out this way, depending on the hide, and I often get certain parts from a 9/10 oz. strap side. The drawings are very old and faded, so I hope they are legible. This is a topic that I have never discussed with anyone other than the gentleman who taught me. I'm quite interested to hear how you guys do your parts layout. Ryan Cope

For anyone who may be interested in competing at Kamloops next March, here is some incentive. Buckle by: Richard Tenisch Box 772, Merritt, B.C. Sunshine Valley Rd. Canada, V1K 1B8 250/ 378-0936

Steve, That is pretty much how I have done it for a long time. However, it recently occurred to me that I was being foolish not to put something between the pad and the ground seat. I wondered to myself which choice words I would mutter under my breath the first time someone brought in a saddle to be repaired which would require me to take out the seat. Also, people have a tendancy to want to lift that seat jockey and look under there, possibly damaging the integrity of the foam. Now you guys have got me second guessing myself. If you put a very thin peice of leather under the foam does it really affect the shape enough for it to be an issue? I'm not sure. But hey, now I've got something new to keep me up at night! Thanks. Ryan Cope

Greg, Do you glue your foam directly to the ground seat? Ryan Cope

Ryan, I made the holes by hand, and sewed seat on my machine. And, at this point, I'd say you need to get a few under your belt before you begin to figure out how to do an inlaid stingray seat. Keep in mind that nobody has ever shown me how to do an inlaid seat in general. This is my second stingray. The first was last month to practice for this one. I had another guy ask if I'd sewn it by hand. He looked at me as if I was either crazy or ignorant when I said that I did it on my machine. Probably the latter. My interaction with other saddlemakers, before I joined this site last Thanksgiving, was almost zero. Also, I would suggest using a thinner pan than normal, and replacing that with a peice of 3 oz. strap. There is probably a few more experienced guys on this site that could help me out with that. Ryan Cope

This is the saddle I took to Kamloops. The customer didn't want leaves. I don't recomend it. Ryan Cope

I did go up to Kamloops. I had a great time, and enjoyed meeting every one. Everyone was very friendly. Having Mr. Stormes disect my work was quite a humbling experience. However, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to receive some feedback from him with regards to improvements that could be made. And by the way, Darcy had to pull out at the last minute. Had he not I suspect the outcome would have been different. I'll post the saddle on the other page. Ryan Cope

The way I was taught I think is similar to Keith. I place the tree on a flat bench and put a block under the rear of the bars to simulate a horses back. I then mark the low spot on the front bar pads which is usually the middle of the horn. Never going past the middle. I consider this to be full. I then tip the tree on its nose. With a yard stick I measure up one inch per position. 7/8-centerfire. Center fire being 4" above full. Mark each side. When placing the rigging on I measure down from this mark. Then again I tip the tree on its nose and measure the rigging vertically with a yard stick. Simply put. Often I use triangle to make sure dee riggings are square, etc. This does not work if your rigging leather sticks out beyond the bar tip. I recently bought a laser that disects the saddle into 4 quadrents. So far it has been a very frustrating method for riggings when I get things lined up perfect, and try to measure it in the way previously noted (great in other areas). I think Keith is correct that if the cantle and horn aren't perfect it makes those measurements invalid.

I think it depends primarily on whether or not you want YOUR name in HER bathtub.

Like some of you I quit using Barge a few years back. It won't stick to latigo easily. Used Masters for a few years. Currently using a german brand called Renia. Wow! WARNING. This stuff should only be used by hard core glue lovers. Ryan Cope

Polly Shoup ( Forrest Shoup's wife ) wanted me to thank all of you that sent cards, letters and flowers to Forrest in the hospital. She received all of them, and read them as well. Forrest is just now coherent enough to know what has been going on. Things didn't look very good for a while, and the doctors weren't sure just why. Turns out he had a broken knee the whole time. Being bed ridden for a year because of his bauched hip surgery, no one is sure when or how it happened. However, the surgeries are complete, and he seems to be pulling through. If anyone would like to send anything to his hospital room I'm sure he would appreciate it. He's got plenty of time now to read cards and letters. Palo Alto Health Care Systemc/o Forrest Shoup3801 Miranda Ave.Unit #4C Room 109 Palo Alto, CA 94391 Sincerely, Ryan Cope

Dividers? What am I missing here? Ryan

If any one is interested in sending Forrest a note, now is the time. He is down to one infected lung, and could use some help from above. Hospital address is: Forrest Shoup M.S.I.C.U.-13 (Intensive care unit room# 13) c/o V.A.M.C. 3801 Miranda Ave. Palo Alto, CA 94043

I'm not sure I understand why it is so hard to punch perfect holes on a watch band. Why not just use a pair of dividers? Ryan Cope

Try googling magnesium embossing dies. No prices listed, but this is what I was thinking of. Ryan

I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of custom embossing plates for use in a hydraulic press. Mostly I need someone who could reproduce a logo, brand, etc. Usually jobs that will only be done one time. So the plates are not made of high grade steel, but rather built to be used 10 or less times. I've heard they are made of magnesium, but don't personally know. I've also heard them reffered to as foil plates. Any one know what I'm talking about? Ryan

A good accountant and an umbrella policy will get you a LONG way. Good accountants know how to "layer" your assets. My saddlery business isn't worth any more than what I have built in inventory. And, the limited liability partnership that I "rent" my shop and all my tools from is completely removed from the process. No liability there. A good accountant is GOLD! A bad one is....well, that's another story. Ryan Cope

I charge shop rate plus materials for odd jobs, which includes a mis. 5% fee. The problem I have with shop rate plus materials is you must itemize everything. People automatically want to start questioning cost, nickel and diming you. The best thing I ever did as it relates to repairs is make a price list of every thing from installing new latigos to putting in a new tree. They are posted on my web site, as well as in my shop. The prices are very generalized as every saddle is different. I try not to under cut any of the other saddlemakers in a 100 mile radius. I talk often to a few of them to calibrate prices. Most of you are probably ahead of me on this, but it aleiviated a lot of potential problems. First off people can decide for themselves before they stop buy my place what they can afford. So, usually when we start discussing repairs we are already on the same page. That saves me a lot of time. Secondly, new customers know as soon as I give them a price list what they are in for, and I'm not just pulling numbers out of the air. If they are not scared off by the cost, there is usually a certain amount of trust established from the begining. Thirdly, it really helped me streamline my own time when it comes to doing a repair job. I don't have a lot of time repairs these days, but all in all having a price list for repairs seem to make things flow more smoothly. Ryan Cope