RawhideLeather

Sold!

Howdy folks, I have decided to retire and so am selling my lightly used Toro 3000 for $1200 - pickup only. I am located in Lakeside Az. (next door to Show Low which is about 3 hrs. from Phoenix). For details, photos and contact info please refer to my Phoenix, Az. Craigslist ad: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/art/5858095733.html

Older thread I know but I have been buying backs from Wickett & Craig for years and yes, the quality has steadily declined. My last few orders probably had at least 30 - 40% waste and they were just pretty poor overall really. Spongey (and I pay extra for holstering!), lots of blemishes and stretch marks and even though I have them split, leveled and the back pasted - the backside in areas is still shaggy. Don't get it. And these were backs, not sides! I have come to think that they simply choose the worst hides for drum dyed - especially the black and I will no longer order black or brown. Doesn't matter what grade (I only buy the best grade) or how much you pay them per square ft. for it. I complained to them and even offered to pay them more if I could get some better quality hides to no avail. Same old crap. As a matter of fact It has become such a huge disappointment that I am even thinking of retiring earlier than I had wanted to. I think the drought has something to do with it but come on. If their top grade back still has 40% waste then how much would their cheapest grade have? How do they expect us to make a living off of this stuff? Wickett & Craig, I hope you read this!!!

Thanks for the safety tips guys. Good advice there.

It sounds like a great idea! Thanks!

Maybe I'll give the leather belt idea a go if the belt sander truing trick doesn't work well enough for me. Thanks for your input!

Thanks for your input! Have you tried this yourself? I had thought of using a dremel with a sanding disk but didn't think of the belt sander idea which is a better one as it is wider. I think I'll give it a shot!

Ahh, I see what you meant now. It was the belt part that threw me off. A leather wheel would still have to be trued up to run concentric so I don't understand the advantage there. I do have something like the photo you posted but have no idea where I could find a leather belt for it. Any suggestions?

Thanks for your reply. I actually have a leather strop board I made myself. This works just about as well and is so much quicker and easier that I usually prefer to use this. I can live with the runout but would prefer to make it better. I tried a rasp in the past but couldn't get the wheel as true as I wanted. Maybe I'll give it another shot. You're right, it makes a mess for sure!

Anyone know a good way to true up a solid felt buffing wheel mounted on a bench grinder? This wheel works great for putting the final razor sharp edge on round knives and other edged tools with almost no effort but it would be nice if I could get it to run a bit truer. Thanks, Richard

Thanks, there's some good advice there. I live in a pretty small town but might try the Craigslist route. I'm a senior citizen myself and am finding it increasingly difficult to find the quality of many things I purchase to match that of the good old days. I guess leather is just another one of those things nowadays. I appreciate your time in replying. Best of luck to you as well! Any one else care to comment?

Thanks for you input. My reasoning for ordering backs is just as you said, I have no use for belly leather, so I don't want to pay extra shipping cost to get it and then have to store it or discard it. I also prefer the smaller size of a back as it is a bit easier to handle (assuming it is cut correctly). And then, I just plain dislike belly leather. If this type of cut for backs is the norm nowadays then the diagrams I posted are either from a past when leather actually was cut that way (as I believe to be the case) or they are just plain incorrect, wouldn't you agree? Comparing my back to both diagrams it seems I am getting almost all of the belly. So perhaps I should just order sides since the cost is cheaper and I'm paying the higher back price for belly leather anyways. I just hate the thought of having to throw away even more leather.

So I'm guessing that it doesn't bother you very much. Honestly, it still does me. Perhaps some others will chime in.

Hi Paul, Thanks for the reply. I'm talking about the bottom right corner as I said, not the upper right corner which is the neck area as you said and is included in a back piece (as per the diagrams). I do know what the belly area looks and feels like and where it is located on the hide (the bottom side in my photo). I was mainly after other people's opinions as to whether or not this is normal these days or is it excessive. According to both diagrams it appears excessive.

I just received the skirting leather back I ordered from Wickett & Craig and it seems there is too much belly area included for a back. If you look at the lower right area of the back I got you will see it has been cut all the way down to the top of the front right leg. If you compare that to the images below it showing a diagram of different leather cuts, you can plainly see that much of the belly was included. To orientate the images to mesh with mine mentalIy rotate the first image 180 degrees and the 2nd image clockwise 90 degrees. I guess I should have just bought a side since it's cheaper per square foot. What do you guys think? Is this how your backs look too? Just doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps I should call them out on this one... And here's another one:

I feel your pain. I recently posted about W&C quality having gone down over the last few years. I usually have to wait for weeks for my order but I do have some custom preferences when I order. I tried an "A" side from Goliger a while back but had to return it as it was just crap and I was quite specific about what I needed when I ordered. I remember when Hermann Oak leather was very nice but that was decades ago. I guess it's just a tough time to be in this business if you care about or need quality leather.

Thank you both for your input. If I had any use at all for the bellies I would buy the sides instead as well. Maybe the quality just is what it is and there's nothing the tanneries can do about it. Too bad, there used to be some really nice leather available at one time... Please keep the replies coming.

JLSleather - keep in mind that my post refers to their darker drum dyed leather. The last time I purchased russet from them it was very good.

Hey guys and gals, I have been ordering from Wickett & Craig for years now and I know that many consider them to be the best leather tannery/supplier out there, I was one of them. I used to get good quality backs from them when I was ordering the skirting in the russet color but since switching to the drum dyed black and brown backs I have been disappointed in the overall quality on almost every order. This is what I have been ordering: SKIRTING BACK - STD GRADE, 12 OZ. LEVELED, HOLSTER, REFINISH, PASTE On my last order I paid $9.45 s/f and I always order the standard grade which is the best available. I talked to Glenn a couple of times about my disappointment in the quality and even offered to pay more (gulp!!!) if I had to to get a more consistent and higher quality. He assured me that they would up their game but that didn't seem to happen. Even though these are top quality backs I typically have at least 30% waste due to scars, spots, stretch marks, soft belly areas, fibrous flesh side areas, spongey areas (despite paying extra for holstering), scratches, marks, etc. This is their best grade? Unfortunately I can't switch to another supplier because I need the hides to be 12 oz. and leveled and I know of no one else who offers that. Many years ago I used to order from Hermann Oak and I got great quality so I know what nice leather looks/feels like. Unfortunately my last order from them was pretty bad and I had to return it - the black pre-dyed color I requested was actually a grayish purple and the overall quality was pretty poor. Hermann Oak is no longer an option for me. So here are a few questions, especially for those who use W&C on a regular basis: 1) Isn't that much waste on a standard (best) grade back excessive? 2) Are they maybe sending me a lesser grade because I'm ordering the drum dyed black/brown darker color? 3) Would I just be better off going back to ordering in the russet color and dyeing it myself? I really don't want to do this because of health and time issues and it's difficult for me to get the color as consistent as the drum dyed. 4) What is your experience with the quality of their drum dyed backs or backs in general? I know they are capable of making a good product but don't know what else I can do to get them to send me consistent brown/black backs. I am not a high quantity buyer but that should not really be a factor in my humble opinion. Maybe it is though? I'm not trying to bash W&C by any means, I'm just pretty frustrated at this point to be honest. Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry Gaddabout but I have to disagree. I believe your method removes the best part of a hand stitched item. "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" by Al Stohlman has diagrams and an explanation as to why the lock stitch is actually not as desirable should a stitch becomes broken as compared to the saddle stitch and I agree with him. I personally think that if you are going to take the time to hand stitch then you would want to use the method that produces the most stable or longest lasting stitch that you possibly can even if it takes a bit longer but I'm not sure your method would be any faster. If you're going to do a lock stitch then you would be much better off just buying a stitching machine. A hell of a lot faster and easier on the hands to boot! Hi Thunderingthompson. The pattern and instructions are included in the book I mentioned in my article: "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" by Al Stohlman.

Thanks Spinner, That is a pretty good resource for thread and I had looked there as well but no joy in the tan color for both thread weights. I may give up and just order the thread from Weaver even though the color isn't quite what I wanted and I'll have to pay their high shipping cost, oh well.

Nobody seems to carry much of a selection for us poor old leatherworkers these days. I have searched and searched for a place where I can buy needles and thread together but either they carry thread but no needles or or needles and no thread or they don't carry the type of thread I want (nylon not polyester). I finally just gave up and ordered the needles from Campbell Bosworth and was going to order the thread from Artisan which I had just found listed on their website but then called them and found out they no longer carry any thread at all even though it is still listed. Sheesh! The thread color I'm looking for is for something in the tan family like deer, buckskin, or beige - something like that. I would settle for a natural linen color if I had to. Any ideas? Thread I use: Bonded Nylon 346/277 Needles I use: Schmetz 794D 230

I'm not surprised to hear they are in bankruptcy. They are the worst company I've ever had to deal with by far. Every time I have to order more snaps I dread it because I know it is going to be a major headache. Trying to get a hold of someone is nearly impossible and they rarely have returned my calls. Takes forever to arrive too. Just bad...

Well, I believe all my stitcher problems have been solved! I finally broke down and called Cobra Steve and after a very short explanation of my many problems he offered to go over my machine himself at no charge! Turns out he was making a trip through Phoenix the very next morning and I live about 180 miles north east of there so we met up in Phoenix and he took my stitcher back to Ca. with him. All it will cost me is return shipping! Unbelievable! Who else in this business would offer to do something like that? Especially for a machine that was not one of his? I've read many times and always maintained myself that Steve Tayrien was a great guy and this absolutely reinforces that impression. WOW!!! I'll follow up and let you guys know how it stitches when I get it back but I'm sure since Steve is setting it up then it will be just dandy. Thanks again everyone for the help. Richard

Thanks for the clarification on the stitch length lever Wiz. Makes sense now. Scary Leatherworks, I appreciate the input. What you said concurs with what Art said. I had previously moved the position of the needlebar in trying to adjust the timing because I couldn't get the hookshaft bolt loose. Boy was that thing tight! Almost broke my allen wrench getting it loose. Anyway, I hope I didn't mess things up when I moved the needle bar. I moved it back to where I thought it might have been before but it was just a guess really. At least I now have the hook intercepting the needle at the right point I think. Thanks for all the help guys. Hopefully things will smooth out now. This forum is an especially wonderful thing for folks like me who live in a small town far from a big city where one might be able to find a knowledgeable sewing machine mechanic. And of course there is always our good buddy Cobra Steve too. What a nice guy.