UKRay

Art, you obviously had a good reason for asking the question - maybe you lost a lot of stock? - but what I really want to know is do you have any good presentation ideas that could stop people stealing? Have you learned anything useful from thefts? We all try to lay out or goods in such a way that they attract people to covet and buy them so it is no wonder that a few bits go missing. I tend to share RDB's view that pilfering is something we have to defend against (hence my request for suggestions) but in the long run we have to add it to our overheads and get on with life. Some ideas I have seen recently for displaying goods safely include keeping loose items on those sturdy metal rings much loved by market stall keepers - I guess we now know why they do it! Hanging stuff out of reach but where the punter can see it. It is much easier to see a hand reaching up in the air. Keeping goods under glass - a flat counter top cabinet for buckles and expensive hardware can save a lot of angst especially if it can be locked. Keeping bags and expensive pieces hanging up behind the counter/table with a sign telling people to ask if they would like to see the goods - it stops all the mauling and sticky fingers too. Hope this helps.

Can't help much with the big name products, Sheridanman, like everyone else I use them as required and they tend to work like it says on the bottle; but I can suggest that you explore liquid kitchen floor shiner as a substitute sealer. I have used a product called Klear Floorshine, marketed here in the UK by Johnson, that does an okay job. You need to give your leather a few coats but it seems to work quite well. Go try a few as they are relatively inexpensive. Let us know what you discover! Good luck...

As he is having some problems uploading images Luke has just sent me some great pictures of his trade goods display (see below). As a 'mountain man' re-enactor, Luke's booth really captures the spirit of the early traders and his historic leatherwork gives people a lot of food for their imagination. He uses a loose woven hessian material as a table covering which reflects the time period he is re-creating. I'm feel sure you will agree that this fascinating stuff is "Awsum!" <grin!> even if Luke would never say so himself... I particularly like the way a lot of unusual looking things are hanging from the cross rail. They add a huge amount of interest to the stall and make me want to explore further. I bet they are great for business and I can't wait to use that idea myself.

A great start people but we need more! One of the things that we all face is that people don't seem to recognise the difference between handcrafted leathergoods and factory made items. I intend to combat this by presenting my leathergoods more like a jewellery display on a black background. Like Drac, I intend to use bright lights to make the leather gleam. (Any chance of a full size picture of you and your display Drac - We need to see the detail!). I also intend to use well made display stands to improve the appearance of the products. For example: many of us make stamped wristbands and sell them for very little money because, lets face it, we tend to see them as a by-product of a bigger job. I think we ought to raise their status a little and display them like a jeweller displays bracelets - see the picture below. The stand cost me about what I would get for three wristbands (I love eBay) and personally I think it adds value to the look of my product. I would value your comments on this - will it work or won't it? How do you display things like wristbands? Do you put them in baskets? boxes? leave 'em loose? We need to know! I do like the way rdb displays his belts. Nice and easy to see what is there, but those are chunky stands and I can see limitations if space is an issue. Anyone else got a good belt rack design to show us? Having stopped to look at rdb's front belt rack, the single table leads us into the display area with the promise of more stuff on the end rack. A good job, but I'm not sure you are doing justice to that lovely big bag and the two others underneath it. I do think rdb has done a nice job of displaying those key fobs. I can't see if they are on hooks but it is obvious that they can be easily seen and accessed. Personally, I am exploring rotary display stands at present but maybe someone else has a better idea? Over to Sweden - It sounds like it is only a matter of time before Tom gets his own set-up and hits the punk circuit with a massive range of bracers and rod tubes - do punks go fishing a lot Tom? grin!> Oho Wildrose - you look well sorted out with that EZ Up tent. I have to say that I like the top layout best of all because the shelves either side add useful height to the displays and the lovely smiley Ann McGrath looks very welcoming. I think this all makes your stuff look more attractive somehow. Your nameboard is cool and the garlands are fun. There seems to be rather a lot of white cloth on display in that middle picture but that could just be the angle the photo was taken from. The last pic is very interesting as you obviously have a LOT of really nice stock there. Would it look better with a few taller display stands to raise it up from the table - I'd like to hear your thoughts guys? One really good point Holly makes here is putting cardboard boxes out of sight under the tables and behind/under the table covers. I always feel it looks untidy to see packaging material lying about - but sometimes it is hard to know what to do with it. I also like the idea of working on something whilst waiting for customers - Holly's rationale for doing this makes good sense and adds a lot to the value of her products. Kate's ideas are all superb and worth reading several times over. I completely agree with her assessment of best selling product types and her suggestion that we follow a theme when we design our stalls rather than just put everything on a flat table is oozing with merit. I'm not sure how I feel about location as although I like to be in the middle of the action I don't always like to be too close to the door/gate. Any other thoughts on this? Jordan's stand looks really neat and spot that EZ Up tent. Great idea about the canopy weights as those things can really fly! What do other people use as weights - big rocks, lumps of timber, what? I can't quite make out what you have on that board Jordan but you obviously have a good range of stock which is very nicely displayed. I can see belts, pouches, knife sheaths, holsters, bible covers, pendant crosses, sandals and more - a huge range for a small producer. Do you think it encourages people to buy if they have a large range to choose from? How about choice - do we need to display lots of the same thing to give the buyer the opportunity to select their favorite colours or patterns? One thing worth noticing here is what looks like some custom work to the left hand side of the table. How many of us actually make a point of putting a really nice piece of custom work on the table with a note to say we take special orders? Apart from the signage, only one thing seems to be missing from this table Jordan, how can people contact you after the event? Do you have business cards on the table? What about a three-fold flyer with some stuff about custom designs? How do you guys tell people about yourselves? It would be helpful to have a few more booths to look at and discuss - anyone else got a picture to show us? What happened to Luke - I know he has some great pictures of his trade goods stall...

When I first started working with leather and selling leathergoods back in the early 1970s, the world was a very different place. A lot less sophisticated. My best sellers were belts, bags and neck purses. I made hundreds and hundreds of them and stocked three shops. Coming back into the business after this much time is starting to make me feel uneasy. I'm not sure I still know the rules and hope that the forum will be able to help me out a little. I am planning to sell my leathergoods at country fairs, re-enactment events and other small to medium sized gatherings. I want to create the best possible show and I have a few ideas of my own about what people want. I do think people will still buy hand tooled belts, I don't think they will buy as many thonged bags and I can't really imagine that neck purses will fit into my inventory at all. What do you think? What sells best for you? Do you think it would work for other people? More importantly, what is the best way to display and sell my stock? I have a couple of belt racks and a flat table but that simply isn't inspired enough. Show me the pictures of how you do it where you come from. Let's talk about 'best practice' worldwide and see if we can learn as much from each other as we did with that fantastic leather casing thread a week ago. If you sell to the general public in a shop or booth can you please post pictures of your operation here and tell us what sells best so we can all share your knowledge and experience?

Hey Randy, I just checked out Tim Severin's book - they used lanolin to waterproof the leather boat. I can see that working really well as it shrugs off water. You can get lanolin at most good pharmacies - I can't believe I've written that twice in two days - it usually comes in small pots and I believe it is used in the treatment of exzcma (sp?). It isn't at all expensive but apparently needs to be re-applied regularly to the hulls of leather boats. Apparently Icelandic fishermen use lanolin to waterproof their huge woollen mittens, but this could easily be an urban myth...

That is beautiful stuff... This is kinda spooky because I was talking to Luke about that missing post just a couple of days ago. I have just acquired an old bookbinder's press and Luke suggested that it ought to work well for this technique. If you simply need to squash the leaves into the leather then this thing is made for the job. These lovely old presses are fairly common on eBay and don't always make a lot of money. The important thing is that they come down level... some don't!

'Picking the bones' out of the last few posts isn't going to be easy but I'll do my best: Corvus said: "All Essential Oils have antiseptic properties so they will probably all be antifungal to some extent but Rosemary Oil and/or Tea Tree would be the ones to select for this - just a few drops in the water you use should work fine." This really does make perfect sense. I just tried three drops of tea tree oil in some warm water and gave it a quick whisk. It appeared to vanish so I can't envisage too many problems there. By the way, tea Tree Oil is a famous cure for foot fungus like athlete's foot so it could be perfect for mouldy leather. Obtainable at pretty nearly every good pharmacy worldwide these days - certainly the ones I have visited. It is great to hear a fine craftsman like ClayB's common sense suggestions. His comment: "...I don't think any one solution is going to be right for everyone..." just about sums up this thread. I think we have given everyone plenty of food for thought and the tools to do some experimenting on their own. I was interested to hear that different water types could affect casing. Is soft water better than hard? Does anyone have this kind of experience or knowledge. Do we get a different reaction from the leather if we use soft water? Ph is something we haven't really touched too heavily on but my reading suggests that leather actually has a Ph of about 4. This is quite acid. Is the baby shampoo with its neutral Ph reducing this acidity and making the leather easier to carve? Has acidity got any bearing on usability? Does anyone know the active ingredient in Dawn Lemon-scented Dish Detergent? Does it matter if all it does is act as a 'lubricant' / surfactant? Charley obviously derives some benefit from using Dawn and I feel sure others would enjoy finding out if they might do the same. I have looked all over the place but can't find it in the UK - anyone got any suggestions for an alternative? One of the most interesting points to come out of Charley's contribution is the observation that we should case leather to different depths for different jobs and if we simply stamp leather we may not need to case right through the leather. In fact it may actually be detrimental to do so. I can speak from personal experience here, and say, like most folk, that I've made leather too wet to work on occasion and, once or twice over the past thirty plus years, I've even put a sharp stamp almost right through the leather by mistake. I think Charley is right, we do need to watch depth as much as ingredients and application technique. The big thing that has come out of this thread is that we all enjoy experimenting. I just hope that there are a few more ideas to come on this topic as it has opened up a whole new direction for me and made my leatherwork more enjoyable. Thank you all.

Collars yes, Shirley, but we never insist on ties... Welcome Dave. Nice to see another Brit here! Ray

Nice job RockingH - is that stone set into your bench?

Nice... very nice Schno. Nipper is a great play on words too!

I'd add a request for the pattern too if it is available. Cool use of colour and the shape is great.

Lovely design. Nice job!

Slipping tools: Has anyone else experienced this when using Pro-Carve? It sounds a tad dangerous to me. Listerine appears to have some other uses, see: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g1472...adero_Cuba.html Suppliers List: It would be very helpful if those who are using esoteric chemicals and specific products could tell others where to obtain them and a rough idea of cost. I have started the ball rolling with a brief list of UK suppliers below - could those of you from around the world help out here? Thanks for the Thymol tip-off Art! UK people can get Thymol from: Paynes Bee Farm Ltd, Bentley Cottage, Wickham Hill, Hassocks, West Sussex. BN6 9NP www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk Tel: 01273 843388 Price: £4.95 per 100gms I have also found a UK based supplier for Lexol conditioner for anyone who fancies a bit of leather alchemy - I just ordered mine! www.motorgeek.co.uk/lexol-leather-cleaner-p-121.html at £9.99 per 500ml

Many thanks for putting me straight, WhineWine. I am perfectly happy to accept that surfactant is NOT soap or vice versa - and although it didn't sound like it, what I was actually imagining was the stuff in a Fairy Liquid bottle on my draining board - which, to my delight, just happens to be a detergent! Wanna give me some more clues on water soluble oils? I'm not sure I know any... Don, before I started this thread I used to get a nice big sponge and slop room temperature water over my leather with enthusiasm. I had never heard of Pro-Carve and the idea of mixing 'bathroom ingredients' with my casing water was completely alien to me. Now I have a spray bottle on my bench - I tried it tonight guys and it works like a dream, so thanks for that - warm water in the sponge bowl and I'm learning more chemistry than I knew existed. Ain't life grand! I love this forum.

It seems to me, Schno, you will not want to be doing this unless the money makes you happy. You put a lot of effort into the cover for yourself but will you want to make the same effort for someone who is not paying enough? I don't think so! Think about what you might be prepared to pay someone for the cover and then simply ask a few friends what they think it is worth. Then, if you are brave enough, take it to your local mall and ask a few dozen happy shoppers to estimate the price of the cover (don't tell them you made it and take the comments on the chin). When you have done that you ought to have a better idea what the thing will make in the open market. Now work out if that much money would make you happy, given the amount of work you would have to do to get it. If the answer is no then find another project and repeat the exercise until the answer comes back YES Market research is a painful process but "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger..."

Okay guys - I think I'm almost up to speed on this thing now. I'm going to try to re-cap: The general opinion is that leather production techniques have changed a lot in the past fifty odd years. So much so, that many of the old ways of preparing leather for handwork are now virtually obsolete. Leather is now softer and easier to work with and it doesn't seem to require the same amount of soaking that old style, harder leathers did. - So far so good! As I see it, you need to select the type of casing you are going to do based on the job in hand. If you want to make masks and much moulded things then a good long dunking (possibly in warm water) is important as the leather needs to become really malleable. If you want to emboss leather then a quick dunk followed by repeated light spraying of water on the surface of the leather will keep it workable. If you are working on a large project then find a piece of glass or plexiglass to put over your work when you are not actually embossing or carving. This will seal in the moisture. You will still need to spray or sponge water onto the edges to keep them damp. If you are carving leather then a quick dunk in ordinary water followed by a water spray works fine for most people. Carving 'solutions' like Pro-Carve are an individual thing. General opinion seems to be that Pro-Carve's main function is keeping fungus away and smelling nice. But: Some claim that Pro-Carve improves the finished appearance of their work, others can't see any difference at all. Some claim that Pro-Carve makes carving easier, others say they don't notice any difference at all. I guess you will just have to try it for yourself and make your own decision here. With only one report on Eco-Flo's version of Pro-Carve I don't feel we have enough information to draw any conclusions about this product yet. Saddle soap in your casing water can be good if used sparingly - too much can cause problems The leather 'alchemists' will doubtless keep us informed on their progress... I want to find out more about the listerine thing - where can Thymol or Phenol be purchased? Are the 'natural' alternatives like tea tree oil really up to the job? I guess the biggest thing to come out of this topic is that the old books may need to be changed next time they are re-printed - can someone mention this to Tandy et al please?

I only have one tip that is to cut a set of three or four leather strips to sit, one on the other, on the machine's platform. These will enable to to adjust the height of your work really quickly without making any mechanical adjustments to the machine. Let me explain: Despite their apparent uniformity, some of the Tandy 3D stamps are slighly different height to others - they can vary as much as 4mm in my experience. If you set the machine up to fit one and then try to use another it may not make a good impression or it may dig in too deep. However, If you set the work up on the pads then it is a simple matter to add another pad if the work is too low or take one away if it is too high. If this doesn't make sense I'll gladly add a picture of my own embossing machine setup. Other than that I think the machine is great. I would love to get a few accessories but they don't seem to be available here in the UK. If anyone has anything they want to sell on then please PM me as I am keen to pay cash - or PayPal!

Barra, thanks for the garden sprayer hint and the down to earth approach to the subject. I'd really like to know what sort of alchemy you are exploring? Have you found anything yet that actually adds to either the tooling/carving/forming 'experience' or the finished product? Art, what do you think the oiling and setting process actually achieves? Does it 'condition' the leather in some way? Bruce J, I wondered when we would get around to listerine. Are you talking about good old minty Listerine mouthwash here? I can see how the baby shampoo would act as a surfactant - but almost any liquid soap would do the same thing - come to that, so would most fabric softeners and they smell nice too (did you get that, Marlon? <grin!>). I may be wrong, but surely a surfactant will make the water more 'slippery' - in other words it will help 'slide' the water between the fibres of the leather and will help to keep it there for a longer period of time -is this what you are trying to achieve? Lexol is a problem substance as far as I am concerned simply because I have never seen it in the UK. Would anything else work as well for those of us who don't have access to it? I am completely with you on the desirability of darker, more contrasting stamped patterns, and I suspect most people would feel the same way but is this the only way to get them? Your saddle soap idea seems like a winner but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by making letter dying look funky - does it react with the dyes? I hope this is as much use to everyone else as it is to me - and thanks to all who are contributing to the pool of knowledge. I just had a PM from Leatheroo whose amazing masks fill me with delight. She says: I think casing for molding and casing for stamping are quite different. I fill a sink with warm to hot water and submerge the leather until no more bubbles are rising. I need the leather really wet for molding and when it dries the leather goes hard. This method would not be really suitable for most stamping and carving projects unless you wanted the leather to be stiff for the finished product. So it seems that the project dictates how you case your leather - anyone got any thoughts on that?

Thanks for all the comments guys - but we haven't got to the bottom of this thing yet! Troy makes a good point when he says that in the 'real world' we often have to start a job without 'deep' casing the leather in the 'traditional' manner first. I don't think anyone could argue with that, Troy. Like Marlon, Troy uses a sheet of material to seal in moisture if he has to leave a job part way through. I think I'm convinced that this is a great idea and will be using it in the future - does anyone else do the same? Same goes for the hand-held spray bottle full of water. Brilliant idea and would work for just about everyone. I just got one very cheap on eBay! Pro-Carve - who knows? The jury is still out here as apart from its fairly well proven anti-fungicidal properties all it seems to do is smell nice - unless someone else knows different? I think JRedding may be on the money here when he suggests that a teaspoonful of an ordinary household anti-fungicide in your water spray might do the same job for less money? More evidence and anecdotes needed I feel... Art, your green Dawn dishwashing detergent story is brilliant. The stuff urban legends are made of; but sadly all it does is muddy the Pro-Carve waters even further. Let's face it mate, in your own words you "honestly couldn't tell the difference". The interesting part was in the very last sentence: "I do lightly oil the piece a couple of days before wetting it" - so what oil do you use and how long do you leave it? Gary makes a great point when he says that 'deep' casing isn't even essential for shaping and moulding. He adopts a rapid, warm water dunking technique similar to Ian's. Mind you, they both come from the semi-frozen North of England so I can understand why they use warm water... Bruce takes us back to Pro-Carve's anti fungus properties - nobody is going to argue with you there Bruce, but how does baby shampoo and Lexol work? Do we have any chemists that can explain what is happening here? Is this a sort of leathery botox mixture that fills the dried up skin with moisture? Could we sell it to all those people who spend fortunes on cosmetic surgery? More importantly, I like the idea that it makes stamped impressions clearer - I think that is what you are implying but please correct me if I'm wrong. I forgot to say Marlon, I'm with you on the fridge thing. I had to get my own beer/bait/leather fridge and keep it in the garage for fear of domestic violence...

It is strange to think that adding water will dry out your leather and make it harder to work; but I can see where you are coming from with this, Marlon. The same goes for the 'overnight in the refrigerator' thing and your glass technique - they both stop the water evaporating and keep the leather workable. Is this type of 'deep' prolonged casing only for quite big projects - or projects that take several days to complete? Surely 'deep' casing doesn't make much difference on a smaller project or one that can be finished quickly - can we get away with a 'dunk and cut' approach or are there any more benefits to 'deep' casing? One other thing Marlon, you mentioned using Pro-Carve. What does this do to make the job easier or better? I know you use it, but does it really work as well as the marketing blurb says it does?

Lots of different approaches and no two people in full agreement so far. It is beginning to sound like casing 'alchemy' is not as widespread as I thought. JRedding's thoughts on 'modern leather production' sound very reasonable to me and worth a lot more discussion. Ian's instantaneous 'dunk and cut' approach is starting to sound like a common sense way to handle things - followed up with a spray of water to keep the leather moist. I accept that thinner leather can stretch but is there any real reason not to dunk thicker leather - say 8oz and above? What about the 'soaking and leaving overnight' thing - is it really worth the effort and what do you achieve? I'm fascinated by Rawhide's 'under glass' technique - how does that improve things for you Marlon?

No word yet from anyone in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand about the way they do their casing...

I have just had a difficult time with a small store that had some of my goods on consignment. They closed up and vanished overnight and it took me almost five months to track the people down all the way from the UK to the US. I was lucky and eventually got all my stuff back but it has made me very wary for the future.

Hi Randy, You might want to buy your friend a copy of this book, The Brendan Voyage by Tim Severin, about a team who built a leather boat and sailed from Ireland to North America in it. I guess they got the waterproofing about right! http://www.amazon.com/Brendan-Voyage-Moder...n/dp/0375755241